PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum

[jokron]

Still playing about two hours a day and I'm slowly developing...
I have come to the part when I want to develope my phrasing...I tend to play on and on for several minutes, just playing around without a goal. All I produce is a stream of "right" tones and sometimes I find a suitable "outside" tone. Good for improving fingering technique, learning the sound of different chords/scales and following the changes.

But now, I want to get better on playing phrases.

Do you have any tips or tricks?

/Jan Olof
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Play what you hear - not what you know.

Miles Davis

[JakeJew]

ok i'm gonna give you two types of advice here

First:

Listen to the masters, transcribe of course. But for phrasing listen to where they start and end phrases, what beat, what rhythm, what the long term concept is, rathe rthan just how a few notes are thrown together within one measure. That's so important - listen to choruses, not measures. You find patterns. Some obvious things like, for example, Pat Martino and Tal Farlow play LOTS of 8th notes straight through often with very little rhythmic variation. Wes Montgomery does a lot of rythms that are sort of a 3/4 or 6/8 type of thing, creating a polyrythm over the band. Mccoy tyner (in the stuff I've heard) is also big on consistent 8ths at really burnin tempos, breaking it up and often syncopating it, with a very straight (rather than swung) kind of feel. Lennie Tristano does crazy shit over the bar, accenting very unusual notes, sometimes playing very long phrases, sometimes playing very short phrases, sometimes playing off of rhythmic concepts, sometimes playing what might seem more random or avant garde. I've found these kinds of observations to be very helpful.

Really listen to yourself as you're playing, let the lines resolve in their natural direction. You just have to sort of "feel" where a line should end or start.

Second:
I think when people say "phrasing" they sort of mean "playing good" with lines and I think that's accurate. Without "phrasing" any harmonic or rhythmic concept won't sound like anything. There are a bunch of jazzers (and players of different genres) who have amazing phrasing often using the simplest harmony. Wes could make an F pentatonic over an F blues sound really hip - most 13 year old guitarists could not do this, and it's all because of phrasing/time feel, etc.

I've come to believe recently that to really make great melodies, great phrases, great composition, the key is totally letting go. The music is already there, it's an issue of tapping into it, rather than forcing your will on it. Recently when soloing I've been trying to simply clear my head, listen to my guitar, and just let it happen, and this usually sounds a million times better than when I put in too much cerebral effort. I've been doing the same thing with songwriting and my songs are ten times better than they were before.

I think it's good to remember that harmony, rhythm, voice leading, etc, all these things can be learned in a classroom or from a sheet or workshop. They require some cerebral thinking. But when it comes to things like phrasing, composition, making a good melody, you can learn tips and tricks and helpful things but it's just not something we can learn in this way. At least, that's just my opinion at the moment.
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland

[jokron]

[Jazzy]

good advice Jake

[jazzplease]

Daaaaaamn. Good stuff. Way to answer a question Jake!
_________________
"You can plant a house, you can build a tree. I don't even care." K.C.

"Temptation,
Temptation,
Temptation.
I just can't resist."
T. W.

[surfrider]

To piggy back on Jake's comments: I sing along or lip sync the notes I am going to play. That was recommmended to me at the Stanford Jazz Workshop. The convenience of playing the guitar is that we do not have the instrument in our mouths. Also, Lester Young, I think, said that you must try to tell a story.

Also, I hear many younger jazz musicians blow a whole lot of notes all over the place. At Stanford, I heard a young fellow, Andrew Speight, really rip on alto sax, however, when Charles McPherson started to play, there was a whole different feel. I would far rather listen to Mr. McPherson any day. Andrew is a really nice cat but "drinking from a fire hose of notes is far less enjoyable than sipping from a cool stream of ideas."

Also, phrasing is about being a the right place at the right time. Teenagers playing those F pentatonics know the scale but can they place the notes where they need to be like Clapton or Montgomery.

Surf's up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sardonic]

hi

i often jam for like an hour, all over the same theme, and record it

then i sit down and listen to what i've played, and write down the phrases that i like

then i go jam over the same theme again, using the phrases that i liked

and record it again, to listen again

and so on

[JakeJew]

Oh yeah, another little thing that I think really helps with phrasing - sing along with your playing.
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland

[PaulD]

To add to what Jake said,

Take a phrase, say a 2 bar phrase of straight 8th notes. Practice it omitting the 1st note, then practice it ommiting the 2nd note, 3rd note, etc. Omit overy other note, try as many variations as possible using the same line. Then practice playing it as softly as you can, just a whisper. Then play it in varying degrees of loudness. Start it soft and end it loud. Start it loud and end it soft. Play one note soft next note loud. Combine dynamics with omitting the notes. Play it using staright 8ths, then play it with dotted 8ths/16th, then 16/dotted eights, etc. Be sure to practice this with the same exact line - one that you are really familiar with so that you don't have to think about note selection. You'll see that with these slight mofidications, you begin to give it many different personalities. Then take another phrase, lather, rinse….

Paul

[alfonso]

Hey Paul D, welcome back long time no hear, I'm hoping you sent some tracks of your playing so I'm going straight down to check. later

[Bjorn]

Hi all, maybe this has allready being said, I did not read through all the replys....

Many newbies, as well as more advanced players usually have ''their'' traditions on how to place a line....
For example: Its very common for a newbie to play a line on one chord, then stop and play another on the next and so on.
A good way to pass this place is playing thinking in motifs.
For example make a line of 7 notes and work that line out through a tune playing only 8 notes.
Doing this, you will allways switch from one mode to another in different places, and your line will also allways begin at different places.

Books will tell us that in a II - V - I, the II chord is the preparing chord to the V, which is the chord of tension who wants to resolve to the I chord, where you are ''home'' so you can relax....
This is all correct, but too many musicians have that in mind while improvising.
I like to experiment alot with my lines.
Trying to put them in places where one wouldn´t expect them to be....
Also superimposing other modes on just one chord is a thing I like alot.
Offcourse all jazz greats that we all like does this, but when I think of this, its the way Kurt Rosenwinkel approaches this which comes to my mind.

Well, just some thoughts.....

Bjørn...
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Ibanez Guitars - Classical Guitar - 7-String Classical Guitar - 6-string YAMAHA JONH PATITUCCI signature - 8 String Mandolin - 10 String Viola Caipira - Cavaquinho - Pianica & Flutes.
Groups: BW - Brazilian Group, BW - Frevo Orquestra.

[JakeJew]

[alfonso]

I'm not sure of what anyone else wrote about I read most and it's all very good advice. What I started to do to work on my phrasing was I would take a standard like "Tenderley", and I would approach it differently than the written melody line would be, like I would wait maybe not a whole beat but I would slowly hit the notes purposely working without a beat so to speak. I got alot of phrasing ideas from listening to Billie Holiday and realizing how she made the song sound. She was known to take a standard like "Body & Soul" and make it her own. She was an amazing vocalist, entertainer and song writer, "God Bless the Child", she was a co-writer of that beautiful song. If you haven't already please check her out, most libraries have at least one of her CD's so it won't cost anything. IMO she has alot to offer anyone looking into phrasing. later

[dewey decibel]

[Bjorn]

- That was to expect.....hehe
_________________
Ibanez Guitars - Classical Guitar - 7-String Classical Guitar - 6-string YAMAHA JONH PATITUCCI signature - 8 String Mandolin - 10 String Viola Caipira - Cavaquinho - Pianica & Flutes.
Groups: BW - Brazilian Group, BW - Frevo Orquestra.