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Arpeggios
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alfonso



Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 1258
Location: Sacramento

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess it's a good thing I don't teach. Laughing

Bjorn wrote:
Quote:
alfonso wrote:
Here's an augmented arpeggio, augmented like diminished can be looked at 4 different ways or keys/ chord forms. This is C+ or E+, G#+, Ab+.


------------------8|--8---------------|------||
-------------5---9-|---9---5----------|------||
----------5--------|-----------5------|------||
-------6-----------|-------------6----|------||
----7--------------|---------------7--|------||
-8-----------------|-----------------8--|------||


Hey Alfonso....
The G#+ and Ab+ are the same, diminished can be seen in 4 different ways since they are minor thirds, but the augmented are just three.... Wink ....

Later.....

Bjørn.
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thomasross20



Joined: 27 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I've been learning my major, minor and 7th arps.. But then what if a chord like maj#5 comes up... surely you can't remember all the arps? And in the heat of the moment, there's no time to remember the notes on the fretboard via the names of position relative to the root.. I'm confused.. So many arps.. They are making my playing sound better, but it's imposible to know them all... So what???? Help! Confused
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Bjorn



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thomasross20 wrote:
OK, I've been learning my major, minor and 7th arps.. But then what if a chord like maj#5 comes up... surely you can't remember all the arps? And in the heat of the moment, there's no time to remember the notes on the fretboard via the names of position relative to the root.. I'm confused.. So many arps.. They are making my playing sound better, but it's imposible to know them all... So what???? Help! Confused


Thomas, you can make allmost all common sounds by only using four arpeggios. M7 - Dom7 - m7 - m7b5....

i.e CM7#5 would be EDom7, the notes are: M3, #5, M7 & 9 of the CM7#5 chord.....

Some people thinks of this as a shortcut, but its not.
I think that it is actually alot harder. you have memorize ALOT to be able to use superimposing, in jazz.

I dont know all these hip arps, but I get around different sounds the same as one who do I think....

You should try to write out all twelve Dom7 chords, and then analize them all against CM7, CDom7, Cm7 & Cm7b5.
Then do the same with the other arps (M7, m7 & m7b5).....

You will find alot of interesting sounds doing this.......

Later............

Bjørn.
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YoungBlood



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thomasross20 wrote:
And in the heat of the moment, there's no time to remember the notes on the fretboard via the names of position relative to the root..



A good exercise to memorize each note in relation to the root chord, Joe Pass did something similar, and Marc Levine mentions something similar in his book "Jazz Theory."

In a song like "All the Things You Are" (I know, second time I've quote that song....it's a great song to use as an example IMO), you have one part where you can walk chords down chromatically (by half steps). Marc used the Eb7 with the G melody note. Your goal is to get to Abmaj7 in half steps. So, he starts with the C7, half step down to B7, Bb7, A7 and finally AbMaj7.
Using the G melody (top note) note, it's the Fifth of C7, the #5 of B7, 13th/6th of Bb7, the b7 of A7, and the major 7 of Abmaj7.

Use the cycle of fifths to do this, or chromatically with many different chords. It will help you learn the notes in relation to the chord you're playing, and also help you learn the cycle like a pro.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thomasross20 wrote:
OK, I've been learning my major, minor and 7th arps.. But then what if a chord like maj#5 comes up... surely you can't remember all the arps?


You definitely can! It takes time and patience but it is totally do-able. You just have to find the simplest way to look at things sometimes and then go from there.

A couple things that have helped me with the more complicated arpeggios:
-taking "eye" solos - just look at the guitar in your hands and visualize the arpeggio you are trying to get more familiar with
-trying to sing the new apreggios (keep it to one octave, george)
and combining the two, looking at the fretboard and singing what you are visualizing.
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thomasross20



Joined: 27 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, guys..

YoungBlood, so you're using the one note against those chords, but it obviously changes the role/position depending on the chord you play. I'd try to do this by memorising the scale/arp shapes for each chord and then picking a note like that based on the scales I can see in my head.. or are you suggesting I think about it more theoretically? I guess there are two ways... Some players I know, when you say 'Hey... What's the #4 of Gmaj?', they'll look at G on the fretboard and go one fret across and one string up to get the answer. Others will just know that it's C#.. I intend to try and learn both ways Shocked Laughing

JakeJew.. So you're saying it's a case of learning all these chords in their CAGED equivalents? So if I want to play 7b9b13 I'd simply have to remember that chord shape, well... for each C A G E and D shapes?

Bjorn, weird to see m7b5 included in that list! But I guess you're correct Smile
Ah!! The old 'one chord is really another' trick.. LOTS of memorisation in that bag.. (Did I really ust say bag? I'll be saying kool kat next! Laughing ). Sounds like a great exercise.. I think if one was to play like that, they'd have/need a superb understanding of chords and would have to instantly be able to say CM7#5 = Edom7. Quite a feat!!

Thanks again Smile I think my approach, for the moment, will be to follow the CAGED route. Also very cool to play other diatonic arps over a chord (e.g. Am over Cm7 etc) Smile The arps are totally making my jazz sound more jazzy, whereas before, with fast-changing chords, I wasn't highlighting the chord tones, just related scale tones... What a difference this makes!
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JakeJew



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas, I had a hunch that the alterations were throwing you off.

I don't think you need to set out to play the arpeggios of every altered dominant chord, I don't even think that would sound good.

I like to look at things as four note chords. In simplest form, you can really chisel most things down to be 7, maj7, m7, m7b5. You get variations within the four, like minmaj7 and maj7#5, but they are still four note chords.

When you get to something like G7b9b13 or G7#9 (G7alt basically) you can actually often get by by just thinking of the tritone substitution, Db7. Not foolproof, but it's an easy thing to get you started.

Most real book charts for basic tunes don't have too many extensions or alterations in the lead sheet. The most common alteration would be a b9 on a dominant, like G7b9. This is pretty simple to deal with, the b9 is the same as the b2. You can literally just think of it as G7 with the root raised a half step. (ex as a chord, instead of xx3433, you'd get xx3434. Just do that for all the arpeggios)

And in that specific circumstance, you shouldn't just be knowing the b9 on the fretboard, you have to be hearing it as well. If you can sing a flat nine it will make it a lot easier to find on the fretboard, and to use tastefully.

Don't concern yourself with super complicated arpeggios for now. Get the four basic ones, and maybe an alteration or two under your belt, that's my opinion at least. You start to see that most jazz chords are just variations on some basic four note chords.

And yeah, I think CAGED is a good way to go.
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Bjorn



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thomasross20 wrote:
Bjorn, weird to see m7b5 included in that list! But I guess you're correct Smile


Hmm, why´s that..?

The m7b5 arp is, like the other 3 arps, stacks of thirds, just in different order.....

You see, taking that Cm7b5 arp as an example.
You can use that over: D7alt, Ebm7, EM7#5, F7susb9, F#M7, Ab7, Bbm7#5.
Those are the most commonly used, but there still are a few which would make sense in more ''Modern'' situations, Like the Am7b9-13, the BM7b9 and the C#M13.....
So actually its just from one step this arp isn´t really suitable, the G.

Btw, the things I study is all in this 5-possition system (CAGED), I think its a good idea to really get things organized......

Later...........

Bjørn.
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YoungBlood



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thomasross20 wrote:
Thanks, guys..
YoungBlood, so you're using the one note against those chords, but it obviously changes the role/position depending on the chord you play. I'd try to do this by memorising the scale/arp shapes for each chord and then picking a note like that based on the scales I can see in my head.. or are you suggesting I think about it more theoretically? I guess there are two ways... Some players I know, when you say 'Hey... What's the #4 of Gmaj?', they'll look at G on the fretboard and go one fret across and one string up to get the answer. Others will just know that it's C#.. I intend to try and learn both ways Shocked Laughing



Yes, I like to view what that one note is in relation to whatever chord I'm playing. The aforementioned relation is a great way to do it, imo.
But you can also do it against every chord. Take one A note, and it's the root of A, the Maj7 of Bb, Dom7 of B, 6th of C, and so on. Do that with each note till you have that ingrained in your head. Then, do something else like what I mentioned in the prior post. Eventually it becomes second nature to you, so you will become one of those people that automatically know that C# is the b5, #11, or #4 (all the same note, different language/way of saying it) of G.

Like JakeJew mentions, you can think of pretty much all chords as one of the "three families." Major, minor and dominant. Pretty much any scale you play with fit one of those chords. Or vice versa. From the dominant family, you have all your altered chords- G7+, G7b9, G7alt, G7b5b9#9+ etc.... Your major chords, you have Lydian augmented, Lydian chords, and so forth. Minor family has your min7b5 (half-diminished) and such.
Some tend to think that each chord has it's own individual scale. Not true...You can play a Dmaj9 over a Dmaj7, or vice versa. As well, you can play a D Lydian scale over a regular Dmaj7 chord (hopefully the others in the band hear you do this to adjust). It's not always "play Dmaj7 over Dmaj7, and Dmaj9 over Dmaj9.

Or did I go off on a tangent there? Shocked
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thomasross20



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woops, sorry guys... yes, of course m7b5 is one of the 'trees'... I'm just used to hearing major, minor and dominant only.. But I fully understand Smile

Jakejew:
Get off with the tritone substitution?? I was thinking if an alteration came up, say Gb9b13, I could play a dominant 7 arpeggio, but think of playing it over the altered scale and just using notes from the scale to colour t, rather than actually memorising each arpeggio. This would drastically cut down the amount of arps I'd need to learn. Same for m7 etc... I could just play minor arp and play notes from dorian, phyrgian nat 6 etc.. Is this an OK way to do things?
Yes... I need to get those basic shapes down using the CAGED system, and then possibly superimpose them over the scales of choice to add the colour notes, yes?

Bjorn... see above for the m7b5 comment..woops!
I must admit.. It's taking me a while to see how those chords can be played over the Cm7b5! Ebm7... That isn't diatonic at all, is it? Or am I being stupid...? And yes, CAGED is defo the way to go for me just now Smile

YoungBlood:
My God... If I could be one of those guys that knows what one note is in relation to others in a heartbeat...I'd be over the moon!! I have two ways of memorising sequences etc. Say the II-V-I. I know the intervals on the neck so if somebody says 2 5 1 in Gmaj, I'll know it's Am, D7, Gmaj just from the position of notes and intervals on the neck. Also, I try to know it in my head.. So that I don't have to think about the fretboard. I don't know which way is best. Best yes... I'd love to be one of those guys.. That's be incredible!!!
Ah yes, I know that a maj7 can be played over separate scales etc Smile This leads to some cool colourations (is that a word?? Laughing), as long as, like yuo say, the band can pick up on it. One thing I like to do when comping is take the chord and add scale notes here and there, sometimes from different scales, to add variety. Sort of like what I perhaps intend to do with arpeggios, mentioned above.


Thanks, guys!
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Bjorn



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thomasross20 wrote:

Bjorn... see above for the m7b5 comment..woops!
I must admit.. It's taking me a while to see how those chords can be played over the Cm7b5! Ebm7... That isn't diatonic at all, is it? Or am I being stupid...? And yes, CAGED is defo the way to go for me just now Smile


Cm7b5 = C, Eb, Gb & Bb

C, Eb, Gb, Bb = M6, root, m3, 5 of the Ebm7 chord. Pure and clean Dorian...... Very Happy .....

If you do this analize with the other examples, Im sure you´ll understand how it works.....

Bjørn....
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thomasross20



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D'oh!!!!! Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
Sorry, I see it now.. I need to work on my speed of thought! Rote learning at first, I guess. Like Parker said... Learn all the theory and then forget it (or something like that..)

Thanks again!!
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thomasross20



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I can see that all the chords can fit over the Cm7b5 except the
Emaj7#5.. I don't see that fitting in with the major or melodic minor modes anyhow. maybe I'm just being stupid again.
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Bjorn



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thomasross20 wrote:
OK, I can see that all the chords can fit over the Cm7b5


Hmm, it was supposed to mean that the Cm7b5 fits over the chords mentioned, not the other way...... Wink

Quote:
Emaj7#5.. I don't see that fitting in with the major or melodic minor modes anyhow. maybe I'm just being stupid again.


EM7#5 is the third mode of the C# melodic minor scale....
The scale is called Lydian augmented.....

Later.............

Bjørn...
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JakeJew



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakejew:
Quote:
Get off with the tritone substitution?? I was thinking if an alteration came up, say Gb9b13, I could play a dominant 7 arpeggio, but think of playing it over the altered scale and just using notes from the scale to colour t, rather than actually memorising each arpeggio.


I think just thinking of a Db7 would be easier. no scales required. You're not memorizing a new arpeggio here, you're just substituting one chord for another.

Quote:
Same for m7 etc... I could just play minor arp and play notes from dorian, phyrgian nat 6 etc.. Is this an OK way to do things?


I don't really think this is a good idea, but that's just me personally.

Quote:
Yes... I need to get those basic shapes down using the CAGED system, and then possibly superimpose them over the scales of choice to add the colour notes, yes?


I honestly think you might have to ease up on your reliance on scales for a bit.

Have you ever tried soloing over a 12 bar blues using JUST chord tones of the basic seventh chords? Honestly, I think before you do anything else you should be trying to do this, in addition to transcribing some basic solos and heads...
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