PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum

[sykofiddle]

I'm curious about the use of space, or lack thereof, in jazz guitar soloing. I'm coming from a folk and blues background of many years and recently getting into jazz. I've noticed that many of my favorite players leave very little space in their solos. Even with more bluesy numbers by people like Kenny Burrel or Jim Hall, they're still playing extend lines that don't stop, sometimes for an entire 16 bars. Why is that? I'm wondering if it's because the challenge of creating fluid lines over shifting tonal centers leads musicians to practice these extended solos (e.g., trying to move through several different scales or modes without missing a beat). In other words, did the relative lack of space used in much jazz evolve because it sounds good musically, or because of a certain drive to master a challenging aspect of the music's structure? Or both?

Michael

[mr. beaumont]

i kinda think jim hall's pretty damn good at leaving space...

here's my theory on lack of space in guitar soloing in jazz:

1. a lot of guitarists just play too many damn notes.

2. the nature of the guitar and the tone typically associated with jazz means that a guitarist is basically unable to sustain notes like a horn player. hence, because notes tail off so quickly, filling the space seems better than dead space...

3. a lot of guitar playing is still rooted in the bop tradition, and one of the tenets of that tradition was to show your ability to connect and flow over a chord progression. long lines show the players ability to connect ideas on the fly, hence, in theory, a more impressive improv.

whenever i start getting too "notey," i put the guitar away and put on some miles. then, humbled, i return to work.
_________________
“For the guitar is the most unpredictable and least reliable musical instrument in existence...and also the sweetest, the warmest, the most delicate, whose melancholic voice awakes in our soul exquisite reveries.”

Andres Segovia

[sykofiddle]

Good point on Jim Hall. After posting my original message I came home to find his "Live" CD in the mailbox. I listened to it immediately and thought, "well, here's some nice space!".

It sounds like you're in agreement with my theory that at least part of this has to do with the emphasis on connecting difficult changes. Interesting idea about the tone of the guitar too.

Michael

[Bjorn]

Good points, and an important topic.
I defineatly agree that many guitarists have the tendense(SP), to ''overplay'', though I dont think that the fact that we cant hold long notes is an excuse. Also because its really not space when a saxplayer for example does that.
A good way to avoid overplaying is to play very rhythmically.
Try to limit yourself by writing out some certain rhythmic 2-bar patterns.
Its hard at the beginning, and I dont think that many people actually practice this, but since I mostly play brazilian music, some rhythmic patterns are very important for the given genre. But it can work very well in Jazz as well.
Doing that, or practising any other systematical rhythmic approach, the spaces will fall naturally after the first repitition of the motif.....

Dont know if Im being clear, hope so.....

Later...............

Bjørn.
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[mr. beaumont]

[Bjorn]

[alfonso]

sykofiddle,
It was actually quite easy for me to use the idea of space cause my lead playing is really slow for one reason. So here's what I did, I listened to a lot of the Great blues players such as Buddy Guy and B.B. King. Record yourself a 12 bar blues and give it a try. I notice you say you have a blues background, well the blues area is one of the best ways to start utilizing space. There's quite a few jazz guitarists who play way too many notes for my taste. The reason for that is I always go by the idea that less is more when soloing. When you listen to B.B. King hell he doesn't play much at all but it's all in the delivery of what he does play. He's phenomenal, again "less is more". Also, Miles Davis was a Master at utilizing space, you don't have to play every note of the melody line or solo, think of it this way. Allow your audience to fill in some of the notes. I also picked up a lot of ideas playing chord melody, you will definitely learn to utilize space by learning some jazz standards in the chord melody style. later scroll down

This site has a couple of lessons by B.B. King www.Gibson.com

[wannabjazzy]

I've always thought people who left a lot of space in their playing did so because they couldn't think of anything cool to play or they wore out all their licks!


Part of being a great muscian is virtuousity. Can't do that with no notes being played, lol. It's not a question of how many notes you can squeeze in, but rather how many great quality notes you can get.

I don't know why when this comes up, people will always talk about some guys' slow playing that he's playing with "feel" or quality etc.

The big thing I've noticed about jazz guitar is that there really are no big bends to draw out a note or some long vibrato. Two techniques that can really give a blues guy his signature tone. A good vibrato can take a long time to devolop and even longer to make it your signature vibrato! The same thing with string bending, -- Albert King anyone?

Since a rock/blues guy can draw out a long note using great vibrato or string bending, you could call that a kind of space.....( and a chance to make all those great faces).......and convey feeling

Not a whole lot of that going on in jazz so I guess you gotta play a lotta notes.....
_________________
"....I was gonna play. but I forgot what to play after hearing him!"

[AndyP]

I like the theory that was raised about guitarists not being able to sustain a note as long as horn players, and therefore play more notes.

One observation I have when listening to jazz guitar players is that less traditional players, (ones that use effects to color their tone) tend to leave more space. Players like John Scofield and Charlie Hunter for instance.

I find it odd that the use of effects to color your tone is not more widely accepted in more traditional jazz circles. Many of the effects that get used allow the guitar to have a more horn or organ like texture. Like uni-vibes, octave dividers and fuzz or distortion.

Often, when I hear horn players it seems like they cause certain notes to fart or distort, imparting a rude texture to their lines. Horn players also have the ability to play so legato that it can sound like bends at times. Then you listen to traditional jazz guitar players, and everything is all neat and clean with very little texture.

I'm not saying there is anyting wrong with the more traditional approach. I really enjoy listening to a lot of players that come from that school. Just an observation that's all. Thougt it'd be interesting to see what others think on the matter.
_________________
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."
--Jimi Hendrix

[sykofiddle]

I don't know. I'm still a beginner at jazz but I don't buy the theory that all the lack of space is due to not being able to sustain notes. I think it's probably the result of (a) pressure to master fluid moves through different tonal centers as part of one's education in jazz playing, and (b) lack of restraint in a musical context that allows relative freedom of self-expression.

I've always thought of solos as opportunities to tell different musical stories that are related to, but distinct from the song. If you listen to the heads of most standards, there's a good deal of space between phrases. So why then do all the notes come flying in when it's time to solo? What does that have to do with the song? Wouldn't it be more "artistic" (of course, I know that's a very subjective qualifier) to use some restraint and craft a musical story during the solo rather than flying through a whole ton of notes?

One good example that's kind of bluesy is the Grant Green Rudy Van Gelder sessions. It's just guitar bass and drums. Grant uses quite a bit of space in his solos.

Michael

[CalebFSU]

I am in a university jazz program and I know that space is something often talked about in classes dealing with improvisation and soloing. Just listen to Miles,Grant Green or in my oppinion the master of "space" Monk and hear how they utilize space. It is really about rhythmic placement of notes. long lines of swing 8th's are cool but listen to Miles on a ballad and man that is a great way to model a solo. Even when the tempo was quick he had such a strong sense of swing as not to have to play a million notes a minuet. I like what Miles said to Trane when he told him to play less right as Trane was getting into his sheets of sound thing. Trane said to Miles how do I play less when I have all these ideas? Miles answered "Take the horn out of your mouth" Valuble advice I would say.
_________________
Keep Swingin!
Caleb

[mr. beaumont]

this is all so situation specific...i'm getting a little irritated, because it's complete B.S. that slow playing or leaving space somehow leads to more "feeling" and then hence-- some "better" playing. it's about HOW-- context.

johnny griffin played a hell of a lot of notes and didn't leave so much space in his music-- but he goes for the throat and elicits a lot of "hell yeah" responses from me.
_________________
“For the guitar is the most unpredictable and least reliable musical instrument in existence...and also the sweetest, the warmest, the most delicate, whose melancholic voice awakes in our soul exquisite reveries.”

Andres Segovia

[sykofiddle]

"i'm getting a little irritated, because it's complete B.S..."

maybe some meditation or a good relaxation tape is in order?

Just having a little conversation here...

But to respond to your point, sure, I've had lots of "hell yeah!" reactions to flurries of notes and fast playing. It can be very inspring/invigorating to listen to. But seven minutes of "hell yeah!" seems pretty boring to me. I'm looking more for "huh, what was that", "ooh, that's moving","ouch, that was painful, but beautiful at the same time" and so on...

Michael

[AndyP]

[wannabjazzy]