PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum

[steve]

Here's another idea to generate creative thought and altered dom ideas. Use harmonised scales.
The first ideas gives a really hip sound that I love, basically I'm using the Em7 from the harmonised C scale (D Dorian scale) over the Dm7 chord, and then moving it into a IVm cadence. The possibilities are endless.

The second idea uses a harmonised G altered scale (Ab jazz minor). I used a quartal harmony and just moved it up the fret board.

Hope you like!

[JakeJew]

Great stuff, Steve, thanks for being generous in sharing these interesting ideas, it's appreciated.

I don't know whether it was because of your posts or not, but I had been thinking a lot about the IV iv- cadence in substitution of a ii V - it's a cool sound, especially in bop. I'm new to jazz, and most of my education about chord tones wouldn't have had me playing the root of the I over a V7 chord (as it's the fourth of the V7 chord)

But I was surprised to hear and see that in jazz (at least more up tempo stuff) it's very common to treat the V7 like a I or IV. Fun possibilities in this.

So anyway, I have been working on "Chi Chi"

The big ii V in bars 9-10 is Bbm7 Eb7, but the melody makes it more like

Bbm7 |Db Db- |

but I've been having fun treating it like

Bbm7 |Bbm7 Bbm7b5 |

As the melody has the Bb going in the bar of V7, so I could call that Db- a Db-6, same thing as Bbm7b5

Definitely a fun way to cover a ii V, just ii-7 to ii-7b5

okay I'm done...
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland

[steve]

Good one JakeJew!
Makes for a very smooth and subtle line by just tweaking the minor chord into a m7b5.

Here's another idea. it could be analysed in many many ways, but the two concepts i was thinking of were: turn the ii V into a four chord prog, two chords per bar (in other words extend the cycle out a bit), and use a cycle of dominant chords.

First idea cycles in as per usual. Next ideas are focused on the tritone sub for the V7.

Hope you like 'em. Let me know what you think.

[JakeJew]

neat stuff. I think it's great to consider the quantity of chords in any given scenario. Nevermind what they are - having four chords per bar is going to have a different feel than one chord for every 8 bars.

It's fun to take a tune and reharm it in those two polar extremes - with as few chords as possible, and with as many chords as possible.

For the latter, using iii IV ii Vs for everything yields a different sound with the same basic target points. Ex: what's this?

[PaulD]

There's some really great stuff here!! Thanks for sharing your ideas!

Here's a few I've gotten good mileage from:

On this one I'm thinking Db major triad over the G (giving me a G7b5b9 sound) followed by a G augmented triad resolving to the C minor7

[steve]

Thanks PaulD for sharing. I really like the biimaj7 idea. Got me thinking. Broke me out of a rut. I always use that as the dom chord, but man it opened a whole can of worms for me when I started to use it as the Dm7!
Especially with comping.
I learned that whole Tone pattern years ago from a great session bass player called Carol Kaye. Ever heard of her? She has a site. Never got around to reworking though!

Please give us another if you get the time.
_________________
Miles is the answer.

[steve]

Here's another idea, that's an obvious but effective one.

Do a ii V7 I in the relative minor (or major if the original key is minor)

[steve]

mmmm just realised that I already used that idea in a previous

does this mean I'm running out of ideas? I know Herbie wouldn't be even close!
_________________
Miles is the answer.

[PaulD]

Here's an easy concept that can yield some nice results. Over ii-V-I in major keys, I will often play an idea over the iim7 then when I get to the V7 just repeat that same or similar idea a half-step above where I
played the original before resolving to the I chord. This also works with
moving the original iim7 line a minor 3rd up as well. Here's a short exapmple of what I mean. I'm basically playing over the tonal center (Cmajor) using either the major scale or pentatonics, just shifting up either one fret or 3 frets from the original key when I play over the V chord.

http://media.putfile.com/25166

Paul

[JakeJew]

The funny thing about all this is that I've realized I actually don't think about any of this stuff while playing over altered dominants. I'm more just thinking about rhythmic phrases landing on and decorating chord tones - if I feel like throwing an altered note in, there it goes.
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland

[PaulD]

I know what you mean. I do most of my thinking when I woodshed. When I'm actually playing, I try not to think but just react to what I hear and hope that what I've worked on will find it's way out at the appropraite points.

Paul

[steve]

Nice one Paul D, sounded particularly good with the double time. Don't suppose you would like to transcribe that run?

I picked up a similar idea from a sax player on a Chet Baker album (can't remember name off of top of mt head) which involved creating an Am pent (Am7) idea over the Dm7 and then bumping it up a half step before resolving it back down a half step. Sounds hip.

I'll have to figure out how to do all this recording stuff soon so I can post some ideas/pieces (be patient I only just learned how to use the "code" thingy ), because my playing is uncanninly similar to yours in phrasing and shape. You are obviously a big fan of the 40's, 50's and 60's jazz, and I would wager that you rip of more horn players than guitar players?

I've learned a lot from your posts already (all types) so please continue to share.

As for the old argument of what to think when playing, I agree, just sing. BUT it's woodshedding the concepts/chords/ etc that gives us quick and skilled access to the sounds we hear in our head while we are soloing. IMO

Although I must admit my playing does tend to lean a fair bit into clicheville, but that's because of what I am hearing, and I like those sounds

appreciate chattin' with you guys, if you ever come over to West Aussie be sure to come for a jam!
_________________
Miles is the answer.

[PaulD]

[steve]

Ditto for the ripping off idea. I'll often sit in bed with the Ominibook or another transcrition and analyse what those cats were doing over certain chords. (then i'll have to get back up again for a cup of tea 'cause my mind will be whizzing! ha ha, great bedtime reading)

Here's another idea:
Using symetrical scales/pattern/ ideas
For this I look into a scale and find chords or triads, then I know that they will work to move around in that scales intervals. The augmented chord is too obvious so have chosen a G7#9 and a G#o (G/G#) from the G half whole scale.

[vlad]

apologize for a very basic question...
i would like to know how to read the charts you guys posted but i dont
know how. i know regular notation (play some classical music) can anybody explain?. I would really appreciate it. Thanks