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[scotty05]

I have been experimenting with a lot of really cool outside tyoe sounds like diminished sounds, melodic minor sounds, harmonic minor and such. Most of the scales I have been looking at and playing are suggested over II V I's or modal vamps and jazz type stuff. I am wondering if any of you use these more outside concepts (playing a melodic minor scale up a half step etc) in a I IV V type blues context? What if any limitations are there in a straight blues progression?

Thanks
Scott

[jazzkat]

As a rule of thumb, play lydian dominant (melodic minor off the fifth degree of the chord) on non functioning dominants and altered scale sounds on the functioning.

So in a blues (say in A) the I to the IV (A7 - D7) is functioning so use the altered scale (A melodic minor up 1/2 step) over the I.

However the IV to the I (D7 to A7) isn't functioning so use the lydian dominant form of your melodic minor (i.e. A melodic minor = D lydian dominant) over the IV.

This principle follows through the whole set of changes.

And don't forget you can also tritone sub for some tension!

[Jake Hanlon]

Since we're dealing with a lot of non-functional dominant chords in a Blues the sky is the limit in many respects. However at the same time attention has to be paid at least some of the time to the parts of the blues progression that is functional, the ii V cadences, and the turn around at the end are things you're going to want to play some lines over because that's just what people are going to listen for, by people I mean other players.

Anyone can just ramble on scale after scale and play out. But playing out is always in context to what is inside. I feel that the Blues in Jazz especially in the last 20 years has been the whipping post of guys working on their hip out stuff, which is all well and good I suppose. Since I came to the music out of the blues I always try and remember it's blues and despite all the out stuff I might play to always use the blues itself as some sort of a tonic scale, a point of resolution. Thus I can play anything I want to as long as I bring the phrases to a close.

For me one of my favorite devices is to play a Major scale off the tri-tone of the chord. In F blues to play E Lydian basically. Very Joe Henderson/Mike Breckerish sound. Very cool.

I have a blues up on my website, I play it all over the place haha.
_________________
Guitarist, Composer, Professor of Music St Francis Xavier University

www.jakehanlon.com


Debut Album Follow @ Itunes http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/follow/id406062013

[ed norton]

Yep it's all in the resolutions. Robben Ford uses alot of cool stuff, but I'm more a fan of the context Joe Louis Walker puts it in. Joe is a real bluesman,but with a hipper vocab and Melvin Taylor too. Otis Taylor is the most eclectic true bluesman I've heard,dude is on a whole other planet. Check out "Definition of a Circle"..... Lots of the top blues guys on the radio have obviously listened to and studied Coltrane, Montgomery, Monk, Parker ect.... If you study how those guys played and wrote the blues you won't have any questions.

[wolflen]

for me..playing outside is a mix of experimentation and sheer horror...i have learned now to "think" in the "outside key" not that there is a key.. but in my head..thinking that way...example: A blues...over the A7 ill play Eb7 and its modified runs .. my thinking will now be in Eb7 rather than A7..i may do a Eb7/Bb7 run that goes back into the A7 or works into the IV chord...but i always restate some harmonic line so the ear is pleased and the tension released..

working outside sounds into a well established solo takes practice, skill and risk...trying things you never have played before and blend that into your " comfort toolbox" of runs, scales etc..

tip: speed is a key ingredient in playing "out" .. changing the tempo of the solo can create more tension than going to exotic scales, runs etc

i watched/listened to a drummer play a solo..he used the off beat for the entire solo and timed the down beat so you never really felt it...it was exhausting to wait for the resolution..but he did it with such skill...you wanted more...

play well

wolf
_________________
wolf

[dewey decibel]

[JakeJew]

I think Scotty was talking about simply being a bit more harmonically adventurous than playing directly on the most obvious scale or mode.

Anyway, I like me some blues. I spent six months working exclusively on blues and rhythm changes, and a lot of that time was spent on chord substitution.

You really can get as out as you want once you're familiar with the blues as it's such an easy form.

Besides all the altered stuff already mentioned, something that Wes and Martino do is to make the dominant a bit more sus-like by thinking of them as m7 a fifth up.

here's a fun approach to the first 6 bars of a 12 bar blues in Bb:

[scotty05]

Let me get this straight. Jazzcat said on non functioning dominants play off the 5th degree of the chord. So D7 play an A melodic minor scale and its various arpeggios etc. The A melodic minors 4th degree is a dominant or lydian dominant so that can be played over the 4 chord in a blues. My question is why cant altered scales be used over non functioning chords in a progression? Jake said the sky is the limit on non functioning chords. Does that mean altered scales can be used over the 4?
Scott (hope that is understandable)

[ed norton]

For example: in the key of D, D7 is the 1 chord and G7 the 4.......... A mel min = D Lydian Dominant and A Dorian= D Mixolydian , so yeah those are great for the D7 chord. They suck for the G7. Look at the intervals they yield over G7. It's better to just think Amin over the D7, just A min ,not necessarily any type of minor scale ,then D minor for the G7. Better yet play this.
For D7 only play one note, F# ,then as it changes to the 4 chord(G7) lower it one half step to F. It's the third of the 1 chord resolving to the flat seven of the 4 chord. Then for D7 just play a C note, when it changes to the 4 chord(G7) you lower it one half step to B. That's the flat 7 of the 1 chord resolving to the 3rd of the 4 chord.
D7 play Amin
G7 play Dmin
or play Dmin for both, it is blues
play anything you want but just be aware of the chord tones.

I hate talking theory , so I hope it helps a little, along with the paid responses.

[steve]

[Jake Hanlon]

you bet. I'm of the opinion that you can't possibly overplay anything Joe henderson did... he was the master
_________________
Guitarist, Composer, Professor of Music St Francis Xavier University

www.jakehanlon.com


Debut Album Follow @ Itunes http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/follow/id406062013

[ed norton]

You guys can pull off just about anything, because you are accomplished players and know what your doing. if someone doesn't understand the most basic resolutions between the 1 and the 4 in a blues, then playing lydian from the seventh of the root is probably gonna screw their world. I always hear people talk trash about SRV and Clapton, but many of the same guys can't play even one chorus of decent soloing on a slow blues in C.
Jake your tips are always great. I listened to you and loved it before, but I avoid myspace as much as possible now. Have a good one guys, good to know you are still beaming Steve, please bring back Paul.

[jazzkat]

I have given this some more thought following other peoples comments. I was trying to give you a kind of system as it sounded like you are feeling your way into "outside" playing. Firstly I assume you can already play over a blues using the chord tones, especially resolving the 3rd's into 7th's of the next chord (as someone else above suggested).

Now assuming you can and you want to get some milage out of your melodic minor scale try some of these.

Assuming you are playing over a G7 chord.

Playing a C mel min (playing off the 4th off the chord) will give you the "correct" classical form of the dominant to tonic movement of this scale - it will highlight the #5 of G7 (D# -the leading note of C min)

Playing a D mel min (playing off the 5th of the chord) will give you lydian dominant - it will highlight the #11

Playing an Ab mel min (playing off the b9) is of course the biggy it's called lots of things but lets call it the altered scale - it will highlight the b5, #5, b9, #9

Playing F mel min (playing from a tone lower) is the rich sound jake mentioned - it emphasises the b9 and #9

Now, these are conceptual ideas. Groupings of notes and arbitrary names given purely for classification and lets be honest geography while we play.

Someone, Jake I think, said you can play anything over a dom7 chord.

Lets take G7 again. G7 is the dominant of C maj.

So, If you played a C whilst it would be a weak (but still consonant) sound (weak because it would pre-empt the dom-tonic resolution) it is present in Gmixolydian/C ionian(maj) so it is consonant with the key
If you played C#/Db this is just a blue note, you would play a b5 in a G blues scale, right?
If you played D - chord tone, 5th
If you played D#/Eb this is a blue note (b3) from C your parent scale. Again if you played a blues in C you could blow using Cm pentatonic(includes b3) over all the chords including the V7.
If you played E this is the maj 3 of the parent scale and again present in G mixolydian.
If you played F this is a chord tone -b7 of G7
If you play F#/Gb, again a blue note this time the b5 of the C our parent scale. Again think about your min pent with added b5.
If you play G, chord tone - root
If you play G#/Ab, this is the min 6th of C - our G7 could be hinting at a resolution in Cm so effectively this is within our key. Think C nat min.
If you play A this again is within our key present in G mix and C maj.
If you play Bb - blue note - b3 of G7
If you play B - chord tone maj 3rd of G7
and we are back to where we started with a C.

One question, which of these notes is "outside"?

It all comes down to phrasing. I hope I haven't wasted your time reading all that and it was of some use.

[ed norton]

You're getting it ,but forget about Cmaj, just think how each of those notes relates to the G7. A "C" note is great over G7, you just have to know what to do with it. I can tell what is messing you up, and thought I'd try to help. UR thinking way too much, sorry I should have stayed out.

[jazzkat]