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Jeffrey_Burr
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 164
Location: california
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 Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, you guys! At every gig, there is always ALWAYS at least one person actually listening, and as for the rest, I'm sure the proportion of nice people to assholes is pretty much the same as in any other random group of people. I'm lucky in a sense that what I play, when I'm playing how I want, is not very different really from what corporate clients expect. I see editorial restraint as a very satisfying artistic challenge. I'm just not going to hit them with the Wayne Shorter, if it would go against my artistic instincts. I like a good storyteller, and I try to tell one every time. And I am not sick after my gigs, cuz baby needs new shoes. If the gig doesn't pay right for what it is, "no thanks".
| Quote: | | they're hiring an aesthetic |
I guess that's probably true for most people, art is image and that's true of everything, for some time now. This is a capitalistic society and art cannot be divorced from commerce, if any of us has ever heard of it. The best hustlers get ahead, quite naturally. You think Keith Jarrett or Joe Lovano or anyone else, is magically free of those kind of encumbrances? They are great musicians, singular voices really, but must also be great hustlers. I'm sure they are quite aware of the image they project, or they have someone taking care of it to some extent. There's lots of really good piano players and tenor players out there.
Ed, very interesting observation about Ted Greene. |
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dewey decibel
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 1677
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad you guys responded so quickly, it helped me to clarify some things in my head. For instance- with Jeffrey, the kind of things I've heard you play would fit well in the context of a society gig or restaurant gig. I'm envious of that. You don't have to alter your approach or sound to make it fit. My issue is the kinds of things I like to play don't (by my own admission). I've never been much of a solo player, it's not what I'm attracted to. But for the sake of "doing every gig you're offered" I have done those. And to be honest those have been about 50/50 good to bad, which is a decent enough ratio.
But then there's the duos, trios and quartets. This is where things get rough. Why? Well as you can tell I'm not actively seeking these gigs- the couple that I've been the leader on where fine as I hired the cats I wanted, but the majority of them I've been a sideman. These are the gigs where you're going through the real book, playing at .5 (out of 10) on the volume, transposing every tune for some hack singer, etc. The kind of thing where you get to the gig and you've never met or heard of the bass player. Screw that sh!t.
So yeah Jeffrey, you're right about the aesthetic angle and how it relates. I guess what I'm saying is I don't fit that aesthetic (both musically as well as personally) and I'm uncomfortable in that setting. Add to that the issues in the paragraph above and it explains why I quit playing. That's really all there is to it. |
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chuckles
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 110
Location: sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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wow, I haven't posted in forever, just dropped by to see what was being discussed.
This topic is amazing! I find it very hard to believe people can't adapt to the 'demands' of corporate gigs. Really, all you have to do is swing, and not too loud. Invariably someone comes up and says something like "It might not seem like it, but everyone is loving the music " or "You might think you're playing to nobody but I'm listening and you guys are great!" This happened yesterday, when I was playing a duo gig with a sax player, 20 metres from the a crowd who were schmoozing and drinking! We didn't care- we had a ball, played some different tunes and one guy LOVED it! And then they gave me the cheque! Hooray!
I've played art gigs to 200 people where you could hear a pin drop, and that was great. And I've played a million corp gigs to oblivious non-listeners, and I'm very grateful for it. It's paid my bills, allowed me to work on stuff, expanded my repertoire infinitely, I've met great people (not just musicians).. Sure, sometimes they've been hard or draining or I've played with people who weren't great. It's still better than cleaning toilets, and there's ALWAYS something I can take away from the situation.
Ever listened to Bill Evans live at the Vanguard? That was a freakin jazz club, and the noise in the background (talking and kitchen sounds) is appalling! Sonically compromised gigs are a reality.
People like to be around music and musicians- they might not know why, or anything about music, and as far as I'm concerned they don't have to. It's my job to be the expert- the professional- and play to the room.
C |
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riovine
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| chuckles wrote: | wow, I haven't posted in forever, just dropped by to see what was being discussed.
This topic is amazing! I find it very hard to believe people can't adapt to the 'demands' of corporate gigs. Really, all you have to do is swing, and not too loud. Invariably someone comes up and says something like "It might not seem like it, but everyone is loving the music " or "You might think you're playing to nobody but I'm listening and you guys are great!" This happened yesterday, when I was playing a duo gig with a sax player, 20 metres from the a crowd who were schmoozing and drinking! We didn't care- we had a ball, played some different tunes and one guy LOVED it! And then they gave me the cheque! Hooray!
I've played art gigs to 200 people where you could hear a pin drop, and that was great. And I've played a million corp gigs to oblivious non-listeners, and I'm very grateful for it. It's paid my bills, allowed me to work on stuff, expanded my repertoire infinitely, I've met great people (not just musicians).. Sure, sometimes they've been hard or draining or I've played with people who weren't great. It's still better than cleaning toilets, and there's ALWAYS something I can take away from the situation.
Ever listened to Bill Evans live at the Vanguard? That was a freakin jazz club, and the noise in the background (talking and kitchen sounds) is appalling! Sonically compromised gigs are a reality.
People like to be around music and musicians- they might not know why, or anything about music, and as far as I'm concerned they don't have to. It's my job to be the expert- the professional- and play to the room.
C |
+1 on that ^^
I don't know, I wouldn't use the word douchbag for someone who does not hang on my every note. I'd reserve a term like that for some drunk idiot who throws a damp rag at you while you're playing just because you wouldn't let him play your guitar during the previous break (happened to me in a jazz club, never had anything like that happen in a private corporate/society gig).
I've gone out to jazz clubs with friends before and had the temerity to socialize with them while the musicians were playing, I guess that makes me a douchbag.
As for the guy who comes up & wants to sing a Sinatra tune, I say so what, as long as he is nice and not a jerk, and doesn't overstep his bounds, what's the harm.
I played a corporate gig where they had a Marlyn Monroe impersonator come in as part of the entertainment. She wanted to do All of Me, real slow & vamped up. It was a hoot (no pun intended), she was popping all out of her dress. Was it pure smaltz, sure, but we all had a good laugh about it later. Of course if someone overstepped their bounds and wanted to horn in for a whole set, we'd pull the plug.
I also did a private party with a monster trumpet player, who also happened to be a real ham. He called St Thomas & led the whole party around on a conga line while he was playing at the front. The people loved it, was it hokey, absolutely, was it a blast, sure.
I think sometimes we take ourselves too seriously. You can have fun and still play good music also.
| dewey decibel wrote: | | You admit that you're just a hobbyist, if you show up wearing a jacket with an archtop guitar that's going to be enough for most people. Doesn't matter how good/bad you are, that's all it takes to "sell" it. |
I rather resent the implication that just because you're not a full time musician you are somehow a poseur who is just playing dress up to look the part. |
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jazzerchick
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 954
Location: SanAntonio , Tx
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:05 am Post subject: |
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I'm with chuckles and riovine. That's my life too. I love it . And once in a while you have an amazing concert gig where everyone sits quiet and listens
or one of those other magic gigs- I'm sure you know what I mean if you
gig all the time.
We just figure that we're paying dues on some gigs and being rewarded on others. It evens out and is still what I want to do more than any other
kind of work. |
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dewey decibel
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 1677
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| riovine wrote: |
I rather resent the implication that just because you're not a full time musician you are somehow a poseur who is just playing dress up to look the part. |
As you should. That comment wasn't directed at you (or any other hobbyist), it was directed at out "clients". My point was it doesn't mater to them if you're a hack or if you're killin' it, just so long as you look the part. And no, I don't think a hobbyist is a hack by default. Quite the opposite as a hobbyist has the luxury of being selective (if it's their gig that is). There's a pianist I've done a couple hits with and I'd play with him anytime. He's a doctor and jazz is his hobby, but he's serious about it. He does mostly the same tunes every gig, but he has arrangements and does them well. The difference between a hobbyist and a pro is a hobbyist only needs to sound good on a handful of tunes, a pro needs to sound good on everything.
BTW- I never used the term douchebag. I said chump because I'm referring to people that hire you just because you're "jazz" and you look the part, and it doesn't have anything to do with your musical ability.
And I don't want everyone hanging on my every note, in fact that would probably bother me as well. It's funny, but the more I think about it the more I realize it's not the audience that bothers me the most, it's the overall situation. Playing with hacks, doing the same real book tunes with no arrangements, playing in a room that's too small, playing too quiet (and I'm NOT a loud guitar player, I'm asked to turn UP more than I'm asked to turn DOWN), etc. A poor audience is just the icing on a sh!t sundae. I don't know, I guess I saw my future of doing that for the next however many years and decided it wasn't for me. That's all I can say. I'm a young guy, I can start doing those gigs 20 years from now (when the aesthetic better suits me). |
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ed norton
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| PaulD wrote: | So let me get this straight… if I am ever asked by my company to recommend live music for some event, I should reply “anything but jazz, because we wouldn’t want to offend the musicians by giving them work and in turn sleepless nights & upset stomachs”? I just wish a schmucky chump like me was intellectual enough to understand all this...  |
You play so well you could do a gig with BIAB and make it sound cool. Man you really play great, so don't worry about anything. You are an exception, it does sound cheezy in most peoples hands, me included, and not too many can pull it off for a gig. Somehow you make BIAB cool. Anyway I want to start BIAB at home so I may PM you, maybe you have a moment to give me a few tips. best...... |
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voodobop
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 347
Location: new orleans
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ill try keep this short and simple. The vast population does not care about Jazz. They do not like it and never will. It is a niche genre of music and the type of jazz that people at this forum consider legitimate is of course enjoyed by an even smaller subset ,almost all of which is composed of musicians or music critics. If that doesn't make it difficult enough, there are in my opinion only 3 legitimate Jazz Hubs. NYC, New Orleans and D.C. Given all of this I find it rediculous how people on here can be critical of the type of gigs that pros are forced to take. I dont see how there could be any other way to make it. |
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mr. beaumont
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 907
Location: chicago
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dewey decibel wrote: |
Now is education simply the nuts and bolts? Math, english, history, etc? Or does it contain the arts as well? I'm sure I don't have to tell you about all the studies that have shown students involved in the arts do better in school than those who aren't. And really it's common sense- one of the purposes of school is to learn how to learn. When a student learns an instrument (or how to paint, act, etc) those skills can translate to their other school work. And if you don't believe that consider this- one issue with students is getting them interested in school in the first place. Getting them involved on a creative, personal level gives them a reason to want to go to school everyday.
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as a teacher, i totally agree. education is more like lighting a brushfire than filling a bucket with water.
i try to expose my students to as many different modes of expression. the thing they never tell you in school is that civilzations have existed without written language, without theoretical math or scientific knowledge, but no civilization has existed without art. art communicates, be it music, dance, paint, whatever. Art inspires invention and innovation.
I fall into an interesting category as a musician, i think. In one sense, it's a very serious passion of mine--even though I teach visual art full time at the high school level, I maintain about 20 guitar students a week and run our school's jazz band.
I gig when i can, usually the private party/ corporate type deal where i sit in a corner and am mostly ignored. I also played as part of a jazz festival this summer to an audience of 75 or so who stared at me intently and studied my every move, and to be honest, it freaked me out a little at first.
I don't care--that part's for me, to be out there and playing music in front of people and making a little extra dough. I fully understand that jazz is background music to 95% of the population, and I've come to terms with that. There's only a few places in town, even in a big city like chicago, that folks go to listen. maybe i'll play one of them someday, maybe i won't, i've put down my roots and made some descisions about my career that i'm happy with. I can't have it all.
succeeding as a professional musician is difficult. there are some very romantic notions about some jazz players--they didn't always have rapt audiences. even some of the biggest names struggled like anybody, and they played the "pasta house" to pay the bills. we need to get beyond the romanticism of our "Art" and realize that just having the ability to play, to whatever audience, is a gift. When you choose a form of Art as a career, some sacrifices need to be made, and sometimes that results in a modification of principles...few are the lucky who get to call their own shots. A job is just that, a job. otherwise it wouldn't be called such.
i guess this is my long winded attempt to say, if playing to an audience that might not all care doesn't please you, then why do it? And if it is your livlihood and you need to play these gigs to stay afloat, please name me the profession in which every day goes exactly as planned and in which your ideas are always listened to and appreciated, so i can get myself back in college and pursue a new major. 
_________________
“For the guitar is the most unpredictable and least reliable musical instrument in existence...and also the sweetest, the warmest, the most delicate, whose melancholic voice awakes in our soul exquisite reveries.”
Andres Segovia |
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jazzerchick
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 954
Location: SanAntonio , Tx
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| I like your post, Mr B! Thanks. |
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steve
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: |
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How can you know whether or not there is a person in any crowd/audience that isn't hanging on your every note?
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Miles is the answer. |
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PaulD
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1130
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| steve wrote: | | How can you know whether or not there is a person in any crowd/audience that isn't hanging on your every note? |
In my case, the snoring is a dead giveaway... |
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jazzerchick
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 954
Location: SanAntonio , Tx
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| He,he! |
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trotsky
Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 438
Location: Sarnia Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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"In my case, the snoring is a dead giveaway....."
LOL
Sometimes even from the guys I am playing with!!!  
For my part I have very little to say about a lot of these heavy topics that get rolling here...
The threads are thought provoking however.
Music has always been a very private thing for me and I am reluctant to share it with anyone...particularly people who don't get it..
Here is my heart folks....what do all you people I don't know think??
I tried pursuing the music career but decided very quickly that it wasn't for me. Music became a real drag and it wasn't until I made it a serious but private interest again that I found the pure joy of playing that I had lost.
I have never understood the desire to perform to the general public but I admire the courage and effort it takes to do so.
I miss living in the big city just because of the cats you'd see at the coffee shops or even the subway cooling the old chestnuts....
I hope that never goes away and they seemed to be having fun with it.
That has to have some value.
Gene |
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Denbo
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 21
Location: PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I played Sunday for a retirement party of about 50 people. I wasn't keen on doing it as I had to play with a piano player/singer who was professional and I of course am not. Plus it was for no pay but could provide other opportunities. I must say it is the last free gig I'll do within reason as I had to travel a bit to get there, even though in the end a few gave very nice compliments. The Pro pianist asked for my number to use me as a fill occasionally and I was reliuctant to give my number for two reasons.
1) Living near Philly I could be asked to drive up to NYC to play a retirement party for little or no pay and 2) I am certainly not god enough to play in NYC when there are so many others there who are good enough and do this for a living... or are trying to.
I play for the love of playing (even though my playing needs more love) and I don't really care to play out as much anymore. Our band will be at Chris Jazz Cafe in Philly this month and technically this is my first real Jazz gig and I am excited that even though we have the 11:30 to 2:00 slot they thought we were at least good enough to play there. But, I can't count on folks to show up to support us at that hour and we have to hope that there is a crowd hanging out casue we are getting a small door percentage. It'll probably cost me more to play there.
Yet I'll plunk down 109 bucks to join the Jazz workshop at my local college and for the next 8 Sundays I'll hang and with about 30 others because I absolutely love to play this music.
My 2 cents
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Denbo |
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