PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum Index PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum
Jazz Guitar Discussion
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Bebop Dorian- Which way?
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum Index -> The Jazz Guitar Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
princeplanet



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="steve"]I still say the best way is to practice/jam with the scale. You can get used to creating bebop-scale lines by ear using a variety of embellishing ideas. WOrk out some of Freddie Hubbards cascading bop lines. No rules in some of those, just taste.

However!

Some rules for you to try:

1. Start your line on a chord tone from the relative dom7.
Am6 (dorian) = start on D F# A or C

2. Run up and down the Am bebop scale to your hearts desire, in stepwise scale fashion. (yes you do highlight the root, b3, 6 and 11 - very dorian no?)

3. If starting line on a different chord tone to the relative dom insert one extra chromatic note before the first RD chord tone. [b]OR[/b] play the straight dorian scale until you hit the b7 of the RD (C) then back into the bebop minor, [b]OR[/b] use a change in rhythm (syncopation) in order to set up the next note on a downbeat.

4. If starting on the 3rd (or any other D7 tone really) of the RD (F#), play chromatically down to the 6th (B) if you would like to emphasise the 5th of the minor chord (E) instead of the 11 (D).

5. When starting on non diatonic notes use common sense and insert an extra passing note the opposite side of the chord tone. Eg, if start on F, play F Eb E and off you go! Or use syncopation.

6. When arriving at the b7 of the RD, you can acend up a major 7 chord buit on this note. In Am Dorian this would be a Cmaj7 arp.

7. When arriving at the 3rd or 5th of the RD you may ascend a dim7 arp.


Many more rules can be generated including turns, doubling back, etc - all generated from trying to keep the chord tones on the down beats (did you check out bass lines?)

I got most of these rules/ideas from a book I lent from a friend a long time back. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the book, but I do remember that the book was primarily concerned with arranging for jazz band, and there was a small section/chapter on this stuff.

Hope this help.[/quote]

Actually Wiz, those 7 hints are GOLD! I'd just figured the first 3 out for myself, but I probably would not have thought of the others, so thanks so much, it was precisely what I was looking for. At some stage I'll get more familiar with other bastardisations of this idea such as the versions which add the b2, the #4, the #5 and the #7. It has been suggested that this remedial work is unnecessary and that chrom filling between chord tones is the way to go. I'm too stupid to cope with always being able to quickly know which chrom fills to avoid. The bebop type scales are kinda like training wheels for my ears. I figure that after a few months of hearing myself play "good" chromatic groups, I'll eventually hope to instinctually know what to avoid when being more adventurous.... or something....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chrisj



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great replies from everyone really.

Yes, the major 7th between the root and minor 7th allows you to hit chord tones on the strong beat when descending. Of course, someone had to make it into some sort of theory and called it a scale.

Which is sort of dangerous because it is all about placement in time. And by simply assuming that you can play this new 8-note scale, it will sound like jazz is a recipe for disaster if you put that 7th on a down beat.

You can play any chromatic tone as long as it is on an up beat. If you practice over a nice slow one-chord vamp and just make an effort to approach a chord tone by a chromatic tone above or below the chord tone, you get the knack for it eventually and it becomes pretty natural.

I'll sometimes play a melodic minor scale over a min7 chord, simply because I instinctively will only play the major 7th on an up-beat. Right? melodic minor is a dorian scale with a major 7th.

-CJ
_________________
-CJ
http://chrisjuergensen.com
The Infinite Guitar: http://www.lulu.com/content/253095
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisj wrote:
Great replies from everyone really.

Yes, the major 7th between the root and minor 7th allows you to hit chord tones on the strong beat when descending. Of course, someone had to make it into some sort of theory and called it a scale.

Which is sort of dangerous because it is all about placement in time. And by simply assuming that you can play this new 8-note scale, it will sound like jazz is a recipe for disaster if you put that 7th on a down beat.

You can play any chromatic tone as long as it is on an up beat. If you practice over a nice slow one-chord vamp and just make an effort to approach a chord tone by a chromatic tone above or below the chord tone, you get the knack for it eventually and it becomes pretty natural.

I'll sometimes play a melodic minor scale over a min7 chord, simply because I instinctively will only play the major 7th on an up-beat. Right? melodic minor is a dorian scale with a major 7th.

-CJ


Yes, absolutely. Ha, I can imagine someone going up to Parker in the 40's and asking,"how do you use the bebop scale in your playing?", and get an answer along the lines of, "the fu&*# what scale?". Laughing

I play a bit of bass now and then (don't tell anyone though), and all that bebop scale stuff is just a natural/intuative thing.

princeplanet's argument about training wheels was somewhat convincing though, and I had some "rules" lurking in my noodle from a theory book once read.

The other problem with bebop scale rules is that they can lead you into lick learning, and then you start to play that same old lick when the tempo get moving (yes I'm speaking from first hand experience Embarassed It's a smoking cool lick though Laughing )
_________________
Miles is the answer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jazz Playa



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 346

PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In reverse Laughing Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
princeplanet



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jazz Playa"]In reverse Laughing Laughing[/quote]

You mean descending? I hope so cos I was gonna ask if you guys use them ascending as much as descending....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chrisj



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as the major 7th is on the up-beat, it doesn't matter.
_________________
-CJ
http://chrisjuergensen.com
The Infinite Guitar: http://www.lulu.com/content/253095
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
princeplanet



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="chrisj"]As long as the major 7th is on the up-beat, it doesn't matter.[/quote] ... and the M 3rd on a downbeat doesn't sound too great either...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jazz Playa



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 346

PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

princeplanet wrote:
Jazz Playa wrote:
In reverse Laughing Laughing


You mean descending? I hope so cos I was gonna ask if you guys use them ascending as much as descending....


No I wasn't talking about descending I was just being funny but it is interesting how some lines don't sound as good played descending.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum Index -> The Jazz Guitar Forum All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group