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I2theo · Joined: 09 Jun 2010 Posts: 2

Greetings to all.

While listening to a great tune called "Blues Too" which features Teddy Wilson, Buck Clayton, and other notables, Al Casey was on guitar and after Buck Clayton's trumpet solo, Al Casey opened his solo with a line that emulated the trumpet, and it got the old wheels a-turning. I was wondering: does anyone on the forum know of any tunes where Kenny Burrell, and possibly Tiny Grimes, are doing the same kind of thing, namely sounding as close to a trumpet as possible? I have been spending some time trying to approximate the tone and phrasing of players like Louis Armstrong, Buck Clayton and Bix Beiderbecke, and I have come across tunes played by George Barnes and Oscar Aleman where they get trumpet-like sounds as well. Any help in this direction would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time!

planetguy · Joined: 11 Dec 2008 Posts: 284

hmmm....while KB clearly uses a lot of guitarist-ic moves....his single line stuff ALWAYS sounds horn-like to me.
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I2theo · Joined: 09 Jun 2010 Posts: 2

Thanks for the response.

In a book I read, the author briefly considered jazz guitar, and in discussing Kenny Burrell said that Kenny's lines tend to be more like the lines of a trumpet, but did not include an example of what was meant. (I think it was Coker and the book was about Jazz Improvisation). Further digging uncovered that George Barnes was highly influenced by Bix Beiderbecke's cornet and after listening to Barne's "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles" and Bix's "Riverboat Shuffle" and "Singin' the Blues" one can kind of pick it up. Oscar Aleman claimed that trumpeter Bill Coleman was his main influence, and some of his lines reflect that influence, along with trumpeter Rex Stewart's. Tiny Grimes is repeatedly said to have made use of the volume control and does the swells, which some claim can lead to a trumpet-like sound, and I would love to have it pointed out as to what tunes he may have recreated a trumpet timbre on. Then, there are these videos on youtube where they demo these fuzz boxes and wah pedals (e.g., the Vox Clyde McCoy, the Mini - Bone), and these are said to be used by guitarists seeking to capture that trumpet timbre. I was just curious if anyone specifically attempted to make their axe sound like a trumpet in a jazz / blues context, and if so: can they impart what route they took to make this sound happen? Again, thanks for responding, and have a good one.

planetguy · Joined: 11 Dec 2008 Posts: 284

still dunno about this whole "trumpet thing"....to me it's a horn like thing (sax, trumpet, 'bone, etc ) and even more...a vcl thing that a lot of gtrsts strive for.

can't say that when i listen to a gtrst that does come close to the "horn thing" that they sound like a trumpet....or alto...or tenor...or......
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greentone · Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 667

This clearly began way back with Charlie Christian. Christian was definitely going for a horn-like sound. He was the first guitarist who played fluid, horn-like solos. He spawned a cottage industry of young guitarists forgetting about "chunka-chunka" and going for solo lines of the same sophistication and phrasing as the horn section in the big bands of the day.

Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, et al., were taking the Charlie Christian thing through a hard bop sensibility. I think all of them still sound very horn inspired.

So, who was their successor in the next generation? Jaco Pastorious, for one--albeit on the bass guitar.
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Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 346

I always thought that emulating horn like phrasing in jazz guitar playing was fairly common. I understand that many of the most well known jazz guitarist's who are popular today studied and incorporated some of the phrasing of their favorite jazz horn player's, as well as piano players. I have a book that has licks of horn players like Parker, Coltrane et. all as well as piano players like Peterson up to Corea transcribed for guitar but I actually got more out of just transcribing MY favorite licks directly from the recordings. The book was helpful though to get me into the concept.

In particular George Benson has said that when he was developing his style his inspiration was Charlie Parker. Therefore much of his soloing approach is derived from Parker's influence rather than from other guitar player's. Of course Wes was also a big influence on him. You'll probably notice the stylized bird inlay's on George's guitar's and those are a tribute to Byrd "Charlie Parker" the genius who really inspired George.

For me, still to this day I don't think I've heard anyone on any instrument with better and more effortless phrasing than Parker had.

Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 346

Green influence, interesting, I'll have to listen for that.

12Theo you might be interested in this book to help you with that horn like phrasing thing: "Jazz Riffs for Guitar/2" http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Riffs-Guitar-Richard-Boukas/dp/082562178X .

The book includes riffs from Parker, Coltrane, Rollins, Hubbard, Brecker, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Tatum, and many more. Also includes a cool little section that goes into Coltrane's "sheets of sound technique". Really helps you see how horn players "think" about soloing, which is different from guitar player's since they are not encumbered by having to deal with difficult fingering challenges; wide interval stretches and such things. Hope it helps Smile

Interesting thing for me back when I discovered this book was, considering horn players don't have a physical fretboard to deal with, really how neatly most of the horn lines actually translate to the guitar fretboard.

Jazzy · Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1660 Location: Norway

greentone · Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 667

Benson has certainly claimed that he was deeply influenced by Grant Green. Also, he went out of his way to acquire Green's D'Angelico after Green's death.

Green, in turn, had very horn-style phrasing.

It seems to me that the really interesting guitar players are the folks who were turned on by either the horn guys or the piano guys. Lenny Breau was a Bill Evans (piano, not saxophone) guy, all the way.
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voodobop · Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 347 Location: new orleans

Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 346

Well definitely George's great tone and also inserting bluesy licks into a jazz setting are both reminiscent of Grant Green.

planetguy · Joined: 11 Dec 2008 Posts: 284

Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 346

planetguy · Joined: 11 Dec 2008 Posts: 284

from Webster's New College Dictionary:

astringent - adj - having a harsh, biting tone

seems pretty on the money to me.

of course opinions about tone are super subjective. might as well argue about the "best" color.

still, i can't recall any conversation or interview where anyone gushed about GG's tone.....

..now, Benson on the other hand.....who WOULDN'T want THAT tone????
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voodobop · Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 347 Location: new orleans

That tone is one of the things I dig about Grant Green. I always liked that he was a non conformist in that regard.

I wouldn't want Benson's tone because there is already legions of people who do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOeDdS7Ic1Q

You can sing every line he plays in this tune.