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How come this place is so dead?
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Henryrobinett



Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 180
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:49 pm    Post subject: How come this place is so dead? Reply with quote

Yeah? Yeah? Sometimes I think musicians are so wrapped up in their own selves - insecurities and what not - that its hard to participate. Just wondering. And it seems that several months ago there was a flame war going on here? Is that right? I missed it thankfully. Did that clear the place out?
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cjm



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know about the flame war...it might even have been something I participated in without really recognizing it as such.

I have a lot of spare time -- mostly in my recliner -- ought to be doing something productive instead -- but it takes a lot of time to rest up prior to and after a couple of short gigs each week. So, out of boredom, and because I don't have the energy to do something actually productive, I sometimes get involved at online forums.

As this forum languished, another one has been very active. And there is something I have noticed (or think I have noticed) that may explain why this forum gets little or no traffic any more and the other stays busy.

And it is this: online jazz guitar "players" are for the most part not interested in playing jazz guitar. Sure, there are many who are...but by and large most are more interested in playing rock or blues and another minority is mostly interested in merely collecting jazz guitars.

This site seemed to be quite a bit more oriented toward jazz guitar, but that doesn't quickly generate 15 (or 150) responses to an opening post. So the "brand x" site has attracted more participants.

Of course, over there" it gets a bit silly in my opinion, and is heavily biased toward ideas like Jimi Hendrix having been a more accomplished guitarist than say, Tal Farlow, and the "more legitimate heir" to a tradition started by Charlie Christian than some one like Russell Malone. Gear discussions lean more toward amps with "good distortion" and a bazillion stomp boxes...but that's what people seem to prefer to talk about online.

Would like to be proven wrong, but have concluded that most people obsessed with jazz guitar really aren't going to enter into enough online discussion to keep a site active.

Hey, even in my own case, until health issues pretty much slammed the door on a reasonably active life style, I didn't spend much time on these sites.

Just my theory.
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 62518
Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're probably on the right heading.

This place has had peaks and valleys and I've run things very loose, maybe too loose. Only thing I've been a prick about is keeping people from using it as a personal advertising source.

There has been pissing matches but that's not really the cause of the traffic flow reduction IMO. Other options, the crowd does lean toward the traditional only element making a lighter load and more of a userbase that really doesn't hang out on the internet as much as others.

Though the posting traffic has been low the hack attempts, spam accounts creations (I've handled over 66,000 to date) have never decreased.

So the idea of throwing in the towel is on the table. Confused
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Henryrobinett



Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 180
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds about right. I've been involved in online forums since - gulp - 1986. There's was a BBS called The Pan Network in the mid 80s. Still going on. They did make the transition to the web and grumbled their way, trying to figure a fee system. But I do know how some of these things go.

I think music throws a cloud over people's involvement anyway. People like to either sit back and watch, or be hidden lawn chair experts. Which is fine. But jazz begs participation -- playing. And jazz musicians are born insecure. That's why the best practice so hard. And why the others don't. And they're either secretly competitive or overtly so, for the most part.

And of course there's the two sides of the snob issue. You're either a jazz snob or you're a rock snob. The traditionalist has nothing to do with pedals and solid bodies. The rock dudes call you a wanker if you have great technique and can play. And if you're fusion you're stuck in the middle of no mans land.

I don't exactly do it all, but I play standards, bop and funk and distortion, clean. I'm kind of stuck in no mans land. I just enjoy all of it too much. And I think these arguments that it has to be one or the other is silly and has helped lead the way to jazz decline. A stern looking, mean old man with a long gray beard saying, "You must choose now son!" LOL.

I don't even know this other more active site. Not all that interested.
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1129
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I don't play professionally, and have at best a limited knowledge beyond basic theory, I don't always feel qualified to answer questions or get involved in discussions where I feel I would really add no value or worse, give out incorrect information. But I still enjoy reading the threads, listening to and commenting on the music posted by others and occasionally posting some of my own playing. I really hope this place stays around. There have been a lot of great players that stop by and I've made several friends and have gotten a lot here over the years.

Brian, I hope you know your efforts here are appreciated Cool.

Paul
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trotsky



Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 438
Location: Sarnia Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copy Pauls response and add my name to it!
Gene
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 62518
Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulD wrote:

Brian, I hope you know your efforts here are appreciated Cool.


Now here is a prime example of a quality person who still comes around, is far more humble then his abilities suggest and the sort of person I wish more people were like (niceties toward the admin aside).

Hey Paul, want a job? Laughing
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stratocasturbator



Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 286
Location: South Orange, NJ

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea of what the traffic to this forum is, but I'd be curious if there are more like me who used to post more, but in view of the fact that more than half the time those posts turned into silly arguments (I happen to enjoy a good debate, as long as it's intelligent and stays on point) and pissing matches, I now tend to log in a few times a month just to lurk and read the posts. I'm still grateful for some of the theory posts that are on here, which I have referred to in the past, guitar in hand. I'd be sad if this forum went away. my sincere thanks to continue to maintain it. Cool
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 62518
Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratocasturbator wrote:
I have no idea of what the traffic to this forum is, but I'd be curious if there are more like me who used to post more,


As per requested, a monthly metric of posts per day for the entire life of the forum. Wink
Code:

MM-Year   Posts   
11-2003   1   
12-2003   4   
01-2004   8   
02-2004   47   
03-2004   29   
04-2004   44   
05-2004   66   
06-2004   53   
07-2004   33   
08-2004   41   
09-2004   46   
10-2004   107   
11-2004   100   
12-2004   95   
01-2005   155   
02-2005   145   
03-2005   199   
04-2005   157   
05-2005   244   
06-2005   189   
07-2005   264   
08-2005   355   
09-2005   359   
10-2005   372   
11-2005   582   
12-2005   433   
01-2006   671   
02-2006   889   
03-2006   1055   
04-2006   1025   
05-2006   947   
06-2006   1061   
07-2006   1181   
08-2006   1178   
09-2006   1060   
10-2006   1179   
11-2006   1227   
12-2006   1234   
01-2007   1699   
02-2007   1162   
03-2007   1414   
04-2007   1084   
05-2007   920   
06-2007   936   
07-2007   995   
08-2007   728   
09-2007   750   
10-2007   837   
11-2007   1418   
12-2007   1094   
01-2008   1064   
02-2008   719   
03-2008   1017   
04-2008   717   
05-2008   651   
06-2008   871   
07-2008   1055   
08-2008   588   
09-2008   545   
10-2008   504   
11-2008   798   
12-2008   613   
01-2009   695   
02-2009   468   
03-2009   502   
04-2009   504   
05-2009   372   
06-2009   417   
07-2009   356   
08-2009   432   
09-2009   435   
10-2009   252   
11-2009   444   
12-2009   431   
01-2010   459   
02-2010   425   
03-2010   237   
04-2010   256   
05-2010   233   
06-2010   207   
07-2010   161   
08-2010   167   
09-2010   81   
10-2010   75   
11-2010   131   
12-2010   63   
01-2011   41   
02-2011   74   
03-2011   72   
04-2011   27   
05-2011   140   
06-2011   119   
07-2011   63   
08-2011   12   
09-2011   74   
10-2011   124   
11-2011   35   
12-2011   58   

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stratocasturbator



Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 286
Location: South Orange, NJ

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pay the bills being a media analyst, but based on the numbers you submitted, this isn't rocket science. if I was seeking to expand the site or at least drive more traffic to it, I'd look into what was going on during the peak months--roughly speaking, 2006-2008. what was happening then? was there a higher degree of flamewars/endless arguments/off-topic stuff? or were there simply more posts and more enthusiasm for the topic then? I wonder if the factors that drove me off were the same that brought traffic down to where it is now. I recall joining this forum and thinking, at first, about how it seemed rather civil compared to some stuff I'd seen on other similar user forums I had frequented. but soon enough, that situation changed utterly. numerous pointless discussions on all manner of things that had nothing to do with even music.

anyway good luck with it. I have no idea of what or where that "other" forum people mention here is, and no interest in finding out. it seems quieter here now, less posts but higher ratio of value per post, so that's something.
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 62518
Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, unfortunately so much of that would have to involve the person who actually owns this place. As well as the person who actually runs this place (and the server hosting a dozen other domains it resides on) to feel it's worth their time to do it for free.

I already spend way too much time just keeping it available and clean. It's an often multiple times daily effort. How this forum is hosted is configured in such a way to cause more traffic than necessary and in turn a few times has brought it to its knees. I've been called upon repeatedly to solve server related issues that have nothing to do with this forum without compensation. Let's just say my charitable contributions coffer has been sucked pretty dry. Rolling Eyes

I've considered offering to take the place, move it elsewhere and at least owning it so I can choose how things are handled. But I'm still not entirely sure how well that would be received or if I even want to do it.
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cjm



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorecki wrote:

I've considered offering to take the place, move it elsewhere and at least owning it so I can choose how things are handled. But I'm still not entirely sure how well that would be received or if I even want to do it.


Given the work you have done for no thanks and nothing else in return either, I wouldn't worry one bit about the reception you might receive.

If the concern is over how the site owner would react...doesn't look to me as if there is any ambition to do anything with the site anyway.

If the concern is with regard to how forum participants would react...well, they aren't doing anything now -- frankly it cannot go downhill from here...the only potential change is that it might improve.

Now, if you're concerned about the time, expense and bother...that's something different. No question that a site can be a burden...but you shouldn't worry about anyone else's issues at this point.
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Henryrobinett



Joined: 01 May 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be a drag to see the place die. Conversations is what the place needs. It seems that, for whatever reason, people here are less interested in engaging in conversations. And I personally think it is related to what I first suggested - insecurities, secret competitiveness - guitar is a very difficult instrument when played at the level of jazz. So instead of just talking some folks are steady sizing each other up! LOL. Instead of realizing this common passion we all share in with one another. Maybe I'm completely off base.

I'm not interested in being a teacher here and I'm not interested in lessons. But I'm more than eager to share and answer questions as a teacher might, if requested. I feel that jazz guitar is our common pool. And it's a small enough pool as it is. I hate to see it drain away here.
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cjm



Joined: 16 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henryrobinett wrote:
It would be a drag to see the place die. Conversations is what the place needs. It seems that, for whatever reason, people here are less interested in engaging in conversations. And I personally think it is related to what I first suggested - insecurities, secret competitiveness - guitar is a very difficult instrument when played at the level of jazz. So instead of just talking some folks are steady sizing each other up! LOL. Instead of realizing this common passion we all share in with one another. Maybe I'm completely off base.

I'm not interested in being a teacher here and I'm not interested in lessons. But I'm more than eager to share and answer questions as a teacher might, if requested. I feel that jazz guitar is our common pool. And it's a small enough pool as it is. I hate to see it drain away here.


Well hell, if people are feeling insecure about their skill level, knowledge, qualifications to join in conversation let me be the first to assure everyone that I'm just a hack level player...doesn't mean a guy can't play out though, and doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on everything. Wink
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cjm wrote:
Well hell, if people are feeling insecure about their skill level, knowledge, qualifications to join in conversation let me be the first to assure everyone that I'm just a hack level player...doesn't mean a guy can't play out though, and doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on everything. Wink


THIS is the sort of comfort zone I was hoping for here! Heck when I first laid things out I half expected the 'Hangout, chat & Get to Know' section would be the most frequently used of the site. Wow, was I wrong!

I think generally you're right Henry! Peoples sphincter all uptight and worried about if they look good.

I would believe people could accept and agree to a greater or lesser degree, WE ALL SUCK! None of us knows everything and thank goodness or it would be pretty fricking boring!

But it seems more like at best people treat it like a library, they take stuff from it but so often never put anything in. Henry's got an awesome start going I must say. Wink
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Last edited by Gorecki on Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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