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Altered Dom Licks
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mjhohams



Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a little bit confused about playing with triads over chords in the sense that which are supposed to be major and which are minor (is it just implied by the make up of the chord you're playing them over?), since I often see them discussed, but nobody is ever denoting it "C and Dm" or anything like that over say, G.


Sorry if that seems kind of stupid to ask.
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 62518
Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjhohams wrote:
I'm a little bit confused about playing with triads over chords in the sense that which are supposed to be major and which are minor (is it just implied by the make up of the chord you're playing them over?), since I often see them discussed, but nobody is ever denoting it "C and Dm" or anything like that over say, G.


Sorry if that seems kind of stupid to ask.


Certainly not a stupid question, yes in some cases it is implied but keep in mind the basis of the thread is Altered Dominants assuming four note chords (G7,C7,Dm7) as a base chord. Triads are not nearly as limited in scope as 7's,9's,11's,13's and any 'altered' variation unless it's aug or dim.

Example: Gm7 (G minor seven) (assume a 2 chord from the key of F)
Base Chord Makeup G,Bb,D,F

So what do we have as a base chord? Two triads! G Minor triad and a Bb Major triad. Lot's of room for you to play over.

Now Alter the chord: Gm7b5 (G minor seven flat five)
Altered chord Makeup G,Bb,Db,F
Now our Two triad makeup has changed Our G minor triad is really a G diminished triad now, Our Bb Major triad is now a Bb minor triad.

You see how all playing possiblities completely changed by moving one note? That's basically what this thread is all about.

Am I answering what you asked? Confused
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a simple idea that I've been shedding sort of exclusively for the past few days. It allows for some extra movement within a 7alt chord or a m7b5 7alt ii V.

Let's say in G, so Am7b5 to D7alt to Gm7 (also works over D7alt to Gm7)

treat the Am7b5 as an Ebmaj7b5 (that's b5, not #11!) and treat the D7 alt as a Cm7b5 with a few available extensions from the altered scale, so that can be Cm7b5, Ebminmaj7, Gbmaj7#5.

but just looking at the Cm7b5, there's some great voice leading in there for comping, chord melody stuff, and of course lines lines lines.

Treat the Gm7 as an Bbmaj7 or a Dm7

Looking at one set of drop-2 block chords -

Am7b5 (Ebmaj7b5) x6778x

D7alt (Cm7b5) x6857x

Gm7 (Bbmaj7) x5736x

you could invert all of those and get some neat sounds. Also works to resolve to a Gmaj7 (Bm7 as the sub for the voice leading).

The voice leading is what I really like about this. The lines move in different directions. In this key, here is the movement

down, down
G - Gb - F

up, down
D - Eb - D

up, down
A - Bb - A

stay, down
Eb - Eb - D

here's a basic line outlining that change (all 8th notes, starting on the "and of four")-

Code:
        Am7b5       D7alt        Gm7 (or maj7)
E  :---|---------10-------------|-----------------|
B  :---|------10----13-11-------|10---------------|
G  :---|---12-------------11----|-----------------|
D  :12-|13-------------------13-|-----------------|
A  :---|------------------------|-----------------|
E  :---|------------------------|-----------------|


Here's a line for something like the B section of All the things you are. It's not much, kinda hard to think of something gold to post here, but the point is to maybe find ideas you might like within the concept. Starts on beat 2, there are a couple quarter notes in there, hopefully I made it clear enough to see

Code:
       Am7              D7                Gmaj7
                        (Ebmaj7b5) (alt)
E  :--|----------------|-----------------|-----------------|
B  :--|----------------|-------------4---|---------3---5---|
G  :--|--------4-------|-------7-------3-|\2---4-----2---4-|
D  :--|------5---5-----|---5-7-----4-----|-------4---------|
A  :--|----7-------7-5-|h6---------------|-----------------|
E  :--|----------------|-----------------|-----------------|
       1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +   1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +  1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 


E  :2-5-------------|
B  :----------------|
G  :----------------|
D  :----------------|
A  :----------------|
E  :----------------|
   1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 


I'd tried to make something that really shows the voice leading for that one.

Comments? Criticism? Hugs?


Last edited by JakeJew on Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sharp 11 and flat 5 are the same notes enharmonically. doesn't really matter what you call it it the same note.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed norton wrote:
sharp 11 and flat 5 are the same notes enharmonically. doesn't really matter what you call it it the same note.


The reason why I specified it was to avoid the natural 5th.
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no problem,I just don't think about too much, just the chord tones. sometimes I call it flat 5 sometimes sharp 11. depends on the application, but the only application I think about is each chord. Those common tone things Paul does are great. by applying the concept to standards you get cool chords, and it inspires movement in the middle voices, very cool. I'm goin nuts on it. The melody movement thing is cool too, but the common tones are making me find allot of the movement I was seeking. thanks to all and especially Paul on this one. ....Steve thanks for the triad things, i'll have some new ones to try. I didn't care for the Steve Khan book, He is great but his style would be a distraction for me. I'll stick with Joe, ted, and Paul for now on chords. if any of you want it drop me a PM i'll mail it to you. it was 25 bucks and comes with 2 cd's so maybe you could drop a twenty on a homeless person if you can. regardless i'll mail it to the first PM'r. great stuff but it will mess me up, I need to stick with Ted, Joe, and our buddy Paul D. Ted has allot of the same ideas but he makes you work em out Yourself, which makes You retain it better. If you haven't played allot of fourth's voicings the Steve Khan book is great.
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mjhohams



Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorecki wrote:
mjhohams wrote:
I'm a little bit confused about playing with triads over chords in the sense that which are supposed to be major and which are minor (is it just implied by the make up of the chord you're playing them over?), since I often see them discussed, but nobody is ever denoting it "C and Dm" or anything like that over say, G.


Sorry if that seems kind of stupid to ask.


Certainly not a stupid question, yes in some cases it is implied but keep in mind the basis of the thread is Altered Dominants assuming four note chords (G7,C7,Dm7) as a base chord. Triads are not nearly as limited in scope as 7's,9's,11's,13's and any 'altered' variation unless it's aug or dim.

Example: Gm7 (G minor seven) (assume a 2 chord from the key of F)
Base Chord Makeup G,Bb,D,F

So what do we have as a base chord? Two triads! G Minor triad and a Bb Major triad. Lot's of room for you to play over.

Now Alter the chord: Gm7b5 (G minor seven flat five)
Altered chord Makeup G,Bb,Db,F
Now our Two triad makeup has changed Our G minor triad is really a G diminished triad now, Our Bb Major triad is now a Bb minor triad.

You see how all playing possiblities completely changed by moving one note? That's basically what this thread is all about.

Am I answering what you asked? Confused



Yeah, thanks Gorecki, it helps to put it in a bit more of a basic spotlight for me sometimes, so you've helped me think it out a bit more than I had. I get most of the altered harmony stuff now (mostly by lurking and reading this thread after so long, so thanks guys Smile) and understand some of the concepts, I guess I just haven't practiced them enough and sat and studied it to really use it in my playing yet.

I would definitely sit down and spend a great deal of time analyzing and internalizing all the great stuff you guys have put into this thread, but lately my arms have been hurting too much to play.. a real bummer.

Thanks again.
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1129
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great stuff, steve & Jake!! Ed, I agree, this thread could keep one busy for a lifetime! Please keep 'em coming.

paul
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh yeah another trick with the thing I posted yesterday is that you can take that bVI maj7b5 as a sub for a iim7b5 and just move it up a minor third and you've got a cool voicing for the altered. So that means any sort ofr maj7b5 lick (even a straight arpeggio sounds cool) then moved a minor third...

I particularly like arpeggiating just going 7, 1, 3, 7, then moving that up a minor third. I think there's an Ani Difranco song that does that, oddl enough. Doing that, you wind up excluding the b7 of the V7alt, and that's something I always like, forces you to resolve to notes other than the third of the I...


So over a V I, ii V I, minor ii V I, or your favorite Garth Brooks tune:

Code:
E  :-|---------------|---------------|--------------|
B  :-|---------------|------6-4------|--------------|
G  :-|------7--------|--3-5-----5-3--|2-------------|
D  :-|--5-7---7-5---3|4-------------4|--------------|
A  :5|6-----------6--|---------------|--------------|
E  :-|---------------|---------------|--------------|


edit: uh, you'd ya know, want the line to be a bit more rhythmically hip than this, but ya know, it's just the melodic skeleton...
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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: G of C Reply with quote

Here's a page that I have been working from for about 8 years (give or take):

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/15923114978.jpg&s=f5

It sums up most of the material on this thread (imo) and is an awesome resource for all areas of playing and composing.

Read from top to bottom and left to right.

eg's F | G7 | C

Dm7 Fm6 | Bb7 G7 | C

Dbmaj7 Abmaj7 | Ab7 Db7 | C


Then of course you can apply other tools like approach chords, iim7s to the dom7s (Ebm7 Ab7 in above example) and extensions and alterations.

Try it out on a simple ii V.

Here's three examples

Cm7 | F7 | Bb

Cm7 | bVII7 | Bb



Cm7 | F7 | Bb

Cm9 | bVImaj7 bII7 | Bb



Cm7 | F7 | Bb

Cm7 | bVImaj9 bIImaj7 | Bb



http://media.putfile.com/GC-examples
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops wrong thread keep this one going, all great stuff.
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul I played common tones before and was well aware of trying to use them, but Your exercises inspired me to try to keep a progression as long as possible with one tone on top .Then keep moving to another degree and doing it again. Oh it smooths things so much. the chords i end up with are so cool. i did the diatonic cycle of 4th's starting on the four chord and staying in one position for the entire progression, with bass. I used each degree of the scale as a common tone, and then changed keys as I went. No Squeeks!!!I know the cycle and all, but it makes You think so much about different chord voicings and generates allot. Some tunes You just have to resolve the common tone, but i'm keeping it as long as possible for an exercise. I did all the things, stella, Body and soul, sunny gets blue,loverman, autumn poo,Europa, and a few others. Guitar does have things piano doesn't. My middle voice leading sucked and this is a big help. Have a good day guys, it's a difficult week so I needed to shout out.
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 62518
Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed norton wrote:
Guitar does have things piano doesn't.


The only thing is ability to bend pitch otherwise, no. The guitar was invented to facilitate a 'portable' piano. The Lute came into existance to avoid having to move around a Harpsichord. Wink
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1129
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed, I know what you mean. Keeping that common tone really makes you have to think and you can come up with all kinds of cool voicings.

Paul
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul the minor and major seconds moving up at the top of the line. whoa buddy that is deep shit, thanks. Love it man. It takes practice but oh there are some cool sounds. Allot of the chords, are chords I had gotten before,from making chord scales that start on a color tone, 9-11-13 ect. ...So anyway it's great for fretboard harmony and great improv tool. The common tone ideas, I think , are especially great for composing didies or writing Pop tunes. You're my main influence lately. That stuff has so many possibilities for all music styles.
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