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Jazzy
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1560
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Hey Mike. I understand what you mean now. But I don`t agree.
Have you checked out some of Adam Rogers and Mike Sternf. ex.? Lots of great tunes there I think.
Anyway, it would`ve been boring discussing if everyone agreed all the time 
Later man.... |
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HenryMars
Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Langhorne PA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Jazzy"][quote="Mike Detlefsen"] | HenryMars wrote: | | Songwriting as a craft is just about a dead art. |
Well, I won't agree or disagree with that, but I think I would paraphrase it to read "Writing a good melody is pretty much a dead art." My preference in music is to have a distinct melodic line in there somewhere. | Quote: |
please explain why? Do you seriously mean that? |
Not all pop songs are poorly crafted, just most of them. The reason is that most "guitarists" that are "writing" these songs have little or no formal training, can't read music, don't have a clue about how music is put together and it shows in the music. The only thing that saves the tune is a sharp A&R man that knows how to package crap. |
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Jazzy
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1560
Location: Norway
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JakeJew
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2018
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Not all pop songs are poorly crafted, just most of them. The reason is that most "guitarists" that are "writing" these songs have little or no formal training, can't read music, don't have a clue about how music is put together and it shows in the music. The only thing that saves the tune is a sharp A&R man that knows how to package crap. |
Now wait just a grin n pickin minute here!
No clue how music is put together? You have to have formal training to know "the" way that music is put together? There is one way? There are acceptable ways and non acceptible ways? Some of my favorite music comes from "untrained" musicians.
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland |
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Jazzy
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1560
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| JakeJew wrote: | | Quote: | | Not all pop songs are poorly crafted, just most of them. The reason is that most "guitarists" that are "writing" these songs have little or no formal training, can't read music, don't have a clue about how music is put together and it shows in the music. The only thing that saves the tune is a sharp A&R man that knows how to package crap. |
Now wait just a grin n pickin minute here!
No clue how music is put together? You have to have formal training to know "the" way that music is put together? There is one way? There are acceptable ways and non acceptible ways? Some of my favorite music comes from "untrained" musicians. |
well said Jake. |
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HenryMars
Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Langhorne PA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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All I am saying is that the lack of musical training shows up in the music, which is why most of the three chord wonder stuff sounds the same. Hey I'm a trained musican who is workin' in a "band" with several three chord wonders ..... they are amazed at how I can change the harmonic structure of a song to make something that sounds blah, sound interesting often with simple modifications. I don't write much anymore and I'm not that great of a song writer myself.
I guess the real test of the worth of music is how long it hangs around. If people are still listening to it 50 years from now I guess it was good.
Opinions vary and opinions are like as_hole_, every body's got one. |
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dewey decibel
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 1674
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Detlefsen wrote: | | Jazzy wrote: |
please explain why? Do you seriously mean that? |
I probably mean it.
The oldies tend to have a distinct, recognizable melody, for instance: Autumn Leaves, Tangerine, Take the A Train, All of Me, Fly Me to the Moon, Summertime, and on and on. I could hear these once, and days later pick out the melody on my guitar so someone could recognize it.
I can't say the same about a lot of the more recent pieces. I can hear a piece and the next day I could hear it again and not know it. It's just not distinctive. Not a universal truth, but if you want a universal truth, I can't help.
I can be convinced otherwise with proof. I don't hold any opinion stongly enough to stick to it regardless of valid evidence.  |
One thing to point out is most of those old tunes that are still held in high regard are the cream of the crop, and that's why they've stood the test of time. There was garbage then, too. Although the ratio of bad to good may have been slightly better.
IMO, The Beatles are the greatest band of all time, and the greatest pop songwriters as well. They were untrained musicians, but they did gain a lot from George Martin's presence, who "knew what he was doing", so it's helpfull to have a good dose of both. But again, no amount of knowledge or theory or technique can make up for taste. Taste is the most important thing.
There are great pop songs being written today, you just need to look a bit harder for them. I have a couple written in the last 10 years or so in my bag, and none of them are the ironic "Let's do Smells Like Teen Spirit as a samba" stuff, they're straight up great songs (not saying SLTS isn't  ). |
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HenryMars
Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Langhorne PA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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One of the posts said that the written changes on some of the old standards were very simple and embelished over the years by jazz musicians. Then it occured to me that the chord symbols and diagrams were often simplified and harmoicly incorrect ... for the benefit guitar and Uke players. The truth is that the changes are often contained in the piano music where the musician jazz or other wise should be able to figure out what the correct changes are.
You also run into this with today's popular music. |
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ntgr8
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 177
Location: west coast, usa
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| HenryMars wrote: | The harmony issue is a valid observation .. I guess I view it as a challange. On the other hand there is a lot of popular music that can be converted to Jazz. Three chord wonder song writers have really dumbed things down.
Ever notice that you can usually tell when a song is put together by a singer/"guitar player"? Everything is really dumbed down. It is sad to say that the complex instrumet that I have spent almost 50 years of my life with has screwed up much of what we call popular music because any idiot can play three chords. Lets all capo up to the eleventh fret  Songwriting as a craft is just about a dead art. |
Hi everyone! Been gone awhile.
I guess I have to check in on this topic which probably deserves a new thread.
I was all set to tear into <name of poster> for the remark about songwriting being a dead art. After reading the original post, I see what he is saying, and almost agree.
I really have no problem with the "three chord song." Three chords in the hands of Paul Simon, James Taylor, Smokey Robinson, or Paul McCartney can be lethal! I believe the problem is within the music industry itself.
I am absolutely blown away with the wonderfully concise writing of Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Hoagy Carmichael, and the host of other Tin Pan Alley songwriters. The Brill building set and the Motown writers were no different. To be truthful, there are only a handful of great jazz musicians who wrote much at all let alone significant tunes. Most of the one that did write were no where near as prolific as the pop writers of their respective days. A key element was and is that the people running labels in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and I dare say 80s understood what great songwriting was.
At he risk of sounding like a relic, nowadays, most of the people running these major labels today wouldn't know a great song if it hit 'em upside the head with a Super 400! Why? Because these companies are owned by multinational, publicly traded corporations which are only concerned with profit margins. In America today, corporations create glass ceilings for their employee to curb employee empowerment. They barely allow the employees to truly learn the jobs they perform. This way, salaries of the rank and file can be artificially kept low. If you are constantly worried over losing your gig, you won't play your best. A few of us of us may be, but most of us aren't that creative under duress.
Another sad truth is that there are no Norman Granzes, Alfred Lions, Berry Gordys, Ahmet Erteguns, Sidney Nathans, or Neil Bogarts out there today-- at least within the walls of the major labels. Oh yeah, Clive Davis is still around, but look what he is doing-- making one after the other lame "standards" records with Rod Stewart, who himself seems bored to tears with them! The few proud and brave new record men (and women) run indie labels that are nearly blackballed from mainstream radio airplay.
Also, no, you weren't dreaming! There is a conspiracy to dumb down music by marketers and big money people who think that content is unimportant and everything boils down to successful marketing. They don't realize that good music is like the truth, you can't hide it forever. Music is spiritual. It is a gift to mankind. I heard someone say recently that when we finally discover life on other planets, they will have music!
So after all, I agree with <name of poster>, but the new great generation of composers needs to have more balls. Songwriters of today and tomorrow need to get close to their muses and write the music that is being transmitted to their hearts and stop looking for a quick, easy payday. Commerce, marketing, and the relentless commodification of all things in American life have sucked the very life out of the music coming from most mainstream portals. To make matters worse, we live in a totally gutless society which cannot admit the simplest of social ills. How in the world are we going to create anything artistically important without acknowledging the truth even to ourselves in private? The truthful answer is we can't.
So, in conclusion, if you don't hear anything of merit on the radio, pick up your guitar and get to work! Let's start a not-so-quiet revolution! You write the next "Love Supreme," "Kind Of Blue," "Innervisions," "Aja," "Songs In The Key Of Life," "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road," "Layla," "Hotel California," "Only For The Lonely," "Pet Sounds," or "Abbey Road." Never be over-awed of your heroes. That can be as much a curse as having no talent at all. Experiment, create, fail, try again, fail again, persevere and succeed! We need you so desperately. We need your positive energy, your love, and your audacity. Be the change you require. Be the truth you seek. Don't give a shit about what others think! Let us know your genius. Don't take it to your grave. And most of all, have fun!!!
Peace! 
_________________
Chris
It's the journey, not the destination!
www.myspace.com/goodtar |
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steve
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 827
Location: oz
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Jazzy
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1560
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Nice songs Steve. I`ve heard the first one before. And played it a few times actually
Heard this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4oAhjVq_FU
another favourite of mine. |
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JakeJew
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2018
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm
I like my pop music a little quirky
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland |
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steve
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 827
Location: oz
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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yeah man, I think we're on the same wave length here. These songs split me in half.
Have you heard Jon Mitchell's "Case Of You" from her Blue album? If not I'll send it to you. That's my all time number one heart wrencher, ha ha.
Interestingly enough James Taylor plays the acoustic guitar on that cut. I love his "Smiling Face" song, the bass line is unreal.
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Miles is the answer. |
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Jazzy
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1560
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Steve, yeah I know that tune very well.
Last year I think I comped about 10 vocalists on that song I was in a "audition house band". (don`t know what it`s called in english, but I hope you know what I mean...)
Also "Both sides now", a fantastic song. By the way, Pat Martino has played that, solo-guitar.
J. Taylor`s band is so fantastic. Steve Gadd and Jerry Douglas, wow!!! |
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JakeJew
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2018
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is one of the best pop songs of all time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSs3AnIyco0
Gotta love well placed line cliches...
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland |
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