PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum

[JakobWithTheExplorer]

Hello all, you wise men!

I've been thinking about something for quite a while now.. I have always played by ear. I actualy started out playing aruond on our old piano at home, playing "my heart will go on" all from my own ear. The thing is, as I grew older, and picked up the guitar, I thought it was absolutely super necesary for me to learn how to read sheet music, and to able to play fast like everyone else. So, I began watching ALOT of instruction videos, reading forums, websites and such.. And I'm still there. Now, what I have noticed is that my ear doesn't develop as easily as it did before, and surely I learn alot about musictheory. But my creativity seem to fade away. And as I play only with people who doesn't use sheets, I can't read either, just know alot about theory and such, wich I'm sure I will have great use of in my further studuies this fall.
So I just want to hear your oppinion, do you think that one can spoil a "Borned-with-ear" and crativity with to much theory?
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If practice makes perfect... well, I guess I haven't been practicing

[JakobWithTheExplorer]

Yes, thanks. But what I have experienced is that when you begin to learn all this theory, it gets you into this "box", where you play what you are supposed to play, instead of playing what you need to play.
When I was just playing around with my piano as a child, I figured out many harmonic ideas, like paralell chords, and 11, m7, add9 etc.
But when I started studying I found that my "knowledges" had been figured out and cold be said in words.
I think what one need to do is, see everythinh we learn as just another tool in our toolbox, wich we can use to express ourselfes.
I have no idea if anyone is getting my point here..
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If practice makes perfect... well, I guess I haven't been practicing

[dkaplowitz]

It seems that your point is that you had a problem separating your analytical thinking from your playing. That's common, especially in beginners/intermediate players. But like Igiro said, you have to apply what you're learning --- a lot! So, in other words, spending more time playing real music/real songs (with others who are better than you preferably), you will eventually learn to free yourself from the confines of theory and start making music.

Regarding your assertion that your cerebral playing is a result of "too much theory" all I can say is that's total BS! But you're free to think what you want --and you're free to be dead wrong about it too.

[alfonso]

Jakob,
I don't understand how you could know so much about theory but only be able to play music with players like yourself, who play strictly by ear it does't make sense. People who read aren't that easy to follow and I'm sure that's why you don't play music with them. Their have been some great non-readers who could play with anyone so my question is why can't you. I play with readers and I can't read music worth shit but I used to read, I stopped doing it but I can read the chords off a lead sheet and I can follow them I know a little about theory. Too much theory?, wish I was like you cause when I'm playing music and players change keys then it takes me time to change chords according to what just happened. Are you following me? I don't think I'm following you cause it don't make sense. I do know that I always play music with players better than myself, you wouldn't believe how much you learn. When I use to play with non-readers we played the same old shit. peace out.

[JakeJew]

Simply put, I think it's just balance and knowing when to apply what. You don't always want to be a technical theory machine, thinking of music as some sort of grid or science. But you don't want to be playing by "feel" so much to the point that what you're doing sounds stupid and/or has no consistency. Either extreme is bad, in my opinion.

I don't know why, but it sounds like you're justifying not learning theory just because it doesn't click with you, or it's hard work for you.

It's also genre specific, even within jazz. If you're into groove/soul jazz stuff, there is a lot less theory required than if you are into modern stuff, or advanced bop with lots of substitutions or whatever.

Also (okay just one more point and then I'm done), what level are we talking about? Some people talk about "advanced theory" as knowing how to spell a Cmaj9 chord, and some people think of "advanced theory" as knowing how to play Giant steps on your head in 11/16 time modulating the tune a half step every 5 bars. Yikes!

[ed norton]

I like to think about it when I'm not playing, and not think about it when I am playing. For me it helps develop an ear, but some people just have it naturally and they don't need it. It really does help for us mere normal common folks. I really can't read for beans, I just started about 8 months ago, and it's helping my ear get to a new level. Some painters and writers , they would paint or write and then later figure out what it meant. that's pretty cool, I think it is called "Surrealist". Coltrane's "Ascension"and Miles' "Bitches Brew" seem that way to me. They sound like they were on LSD to me, but Those guys knew theory too.

[Gorecki]

[danielo]

What i do is this: I study all the theory (scales, chords, arpeggios, licks, transcriptions, etc.) and try to apply them to a specific part of a tune. But when I am really playing, at a bar o cafe, i never think of the things i studied the days before. Hopefully, if you study often enough, things will show up by themselves in the moment you play.
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danielo
la vida es todo aquello que puede definirse mediante un conjunto no nulo de afirmaciones elementales

[JakeJew]

Even though it might be out of character for me to say this, first and foremost when somebody is "studying" music, I think they always should remember that music is (ideally) an artform, a means of expression and/or communication.

I think that perspective will always be more fruitful than thinking of music as simply a series of skills that one needs to excell at. I think it was igiro here who said that theory is a means to an end. With jazz, that's very true. It's pretty damn hard to play any kind of jazz without at the very least, and I mean bare minimum, knowing all 12 major keys up and down the neck (and side to side, and diagonally, etc.) And to be able to play most jazz well we're all going to need a lot of theory knowledge, it's just pretty much unavoidable. But jazz is still music, music is still art, and to even get to the artistic/expressive parts of jazz, there's a minimum of theory and skill that needs to be learned.


But my point in this post here is that whatever level of theory (or skill) you are at or are trying to acheive, it's most important to keep in mind the art itself, the expression, and imo that really triumphs over anything else.

[JakobWithTheExplorer]

Allright, have been gone for a while, thanks for all the answers.

First, I am aiming towards the high sky. I want to learn everything i possibly can about this great subject. The reason I am playing with the same non-readers is simply becouse I live in this very big place where you don't see a good musician within miiiiiiles. Lyckily, the two guys I play with are really good earplayers and can improvise, especially one of these guys is amazing. He makes music that is totally original. So I rather play with these good musicians, who can improvise and have fun, then with some academic person, that have no idea of in-the-moment-music.

Second, my level.. Hmmm.. Hard question to answer. I see myself as a better musician than guitarist, ever though guitar is my main instrument, I understand notes better on the piano, since I don't know very much about where the notes are on the guitar. I play more on intervals, than notes, if you understand?

Allmost all of my musical training has been with my own songs, in my own style. And becouse I feel like I have sooo much to learn about theory, I want to keep what I have already learned, about originallity and creativity.
I sure think I am lazy, and would rather skip the whole theory-part. But as I said, I am aiming to reach the top... I am sure you have heard this all the time. But for me, that's just the way it is. I can't do anything else. Even if my schoolgrades says I can get into any education I want to, I wouldn't be happy living anything else.

And Jake, belive me when I say that music is art for me. It's more than art, it's a pure reflection of things we experience in our life. That's maybe why I reject theory to a certain point (I mean uncounciusly).. Becouse something inside of me tells me that my feeling isn't a science. Music is all around us, we just need to pick it down. Theory and technique are only tools, I don't think about what I'm doing, it all comes naturally
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If practice makes perfect... well, I guess I haven't been practicing

[capJazz]

People complaining about theory ruining creativity, weren't really creative to begin with... They merely fooled themselves into believing so. A truly creative person will be able to bend the rules, no matter what limitations are put on them.

Don't be lazy, suck it up and absorb as much knowledge as you can. All knowledge you acquire will only benefit your playing, at least away from the bandstand.

As bird said: "Learn the changes, then forget them."

[JakeJew]

[JakobWithTheExplorer]

[mr. beaumont]

[quote="Gorecki"]

[JakeJew]

[quote="mr. beaumont"]