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alfonso · Joined: 25 May 2005 Posts: 1256 Location: Sacramento

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhqTnF1o-p0&search=herb%20ellis

JakeJew · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 2192 Location: Boston, MA

You know, I have to make a gripe, and I'm interested in the opinion of others on this as well.

I've noticed this really mostly in jazz guitar, I haven't come across it in other genres - trying to play waaaaay faster than you can do cleanly. I'm not a clean freak, I think a couple flubbed notes here and there is not a big deal. Early (that's early, not late) Tal Farlow had some flubs, but overall his lines were beautifully constructed and he usually executed them fine. Wes was constantly somewhat sloppy when doing up tempo (280+)single note lines but he would recover and he knew what to do to make it sound good overall, to paint a good picture with his abilities. But in this video, Kessell barely hits one good note when he's trying to play those 8th note lines.

Plain and simple, I just think it sounds awful! I feel like it's only fun (for the listener) to play real up tempo stuff if you can actually pull it off, and do stuff that sounds good.

I have the same opinion with some of the stuff Tal did later in his career, especially those duets with Lenny Breau. Some of the tunes were lightning fast, and so little of it really sounded like anything to me.

I mean hell why not just drop the tempo a bit and actually play some good lines?

Jazzy · Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1660 Location: Norway

I completely agree with you JakeJew

Gorecki · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject:

JakeJew · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 2192 Location: Boston, MA

scottl · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 216 Location: Cherry Hill, NJ

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Gorecki · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject:

Gorecki · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject:

scottl · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 216 Location: Cherry Hill, NJ

Nope... Larry toured for years with McLaughlin and Paco doing the Friday Night in San Fran thing.... Besides, he knew the melody?? When we hook up, I'll play Spain with you.... Very Happy

Gorecki · Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject:

alfonso · Joined: 25 May 2005 Posts: 1256 Location: Sacramento

Hey guys thanks for the enlightenment, I never even thought about Barneys' sloppy playing, mainly cause Herb is the one who started doing the Flintstones song as a solo and I think Barney just was there adding to the piece at that particular session. Not a big deal cause they are still two of the best jazz guitarists the world ever came across and I know Barney has passed on and Herb no longer plays, but still it's just my opinion that these cats were top of the line. I posted the clip mainly to show what the pros used to do and if I could flub notes as well as Barney did, in my opinion I'd be one bad ass jazz guitarist. I'm not taking anything away anyone said but I prefer listening to the older guys, the younger guys are cool too but I like to see what came before them. All critiques acknowledged and accepted as facts or opinions. thanks

scottl · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 216 Location: Cherry Hill, NJ

I listened again this morning and I think I prefer Barney on this one. Deeper lines and much more in the changes as opposed to Herb who played on them. I also felt that if I closed my eyes, Jimmy Bruno sounds just like Herb....

Don't get me wrong Alfonso, both guys are great players. Just for me, nowhere near Grant Green, Wes, Pass, Christian, Hall, Benson, Johnny Smith, etc... Those guys told a story in the changes and did not just play over them. Once again, all in just my own opinion......
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Ian · Joined: 19 Jun 2006 Posts: 54 Location: Brisbane, Australia

I think that even the best Cats run into some of the same troubles as the rest of us. Like if someone calls a tune at 300 they might think "Oh man this is gonna be a killer, but I gotta have solo otherwise these other cats will think I'm chicken!" I have seen some of the best players in my town struggle with fast tempos, lose forms and mess up endings. And I have played with guys I considered above my level and been suprised by their limitations. Jazz is not an exact art - there are plenty of times you play songs you've never heard with folks you've never played with before, and all the imperfections are part of the living art that is jazz!