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Avoid note - how do we identify them ?
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arteinvivo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject: Avoid note - how do we identify them ? Reply with quote

My question is this, how do we identify avoid notes in a scale when we relate it to a specific chord ?

Ex. chord C major 7 or C major 6 has three scale possibilities: Major (Ionian, Lydian mode) and major pentatonic.

C major scale or Ionian mode has one avoid note which is F (4th degree of the scale).

C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G - A - B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

CM7 chord tones:
C - D - E F - G - A - B
1 3 5 7

Why is the F note (4th degree) considered an avoid note ?

To my ears a half-step inerval from the third degree does not sound so bad when played against a CM7.

What about G dominant 7. Everybody suggest to use the Mixolydian mode over this type of chord but if we analyse it we find ...

G Mixolydian scale
C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G - A - B
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

G7 chord tones:
C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G - A - B
1 3 5 b7

... a half-step interval between the third and fourth degree, so again this means the fourth degree should be seen as an avoid note.

Should we conclude that an avoid note is always between the third and fourth degree when degrees 1-3-5 are unaltered?

Thanks
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arteinvivo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Post formatted Reply with quote

My question is this, how do we identify avoid notes in a scale when we relate it to a specific chord ?

Ex. chord C major 7 or C major 6 has three scale possibilities: Major (Ionian, Lydian mode) and major pentatonic.

C major scale or Ionian mode has one avoid note which is F (4th degree of the scale).

Code:
C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G - A - B
1   2   3 4   5   6   7 1   2   3 4   5   6   7

CM7 chord tones:
C - D - E F - G - A - B
1       3     5       7

Why is the F note (4th degree) considered an avoid note ?

To my ears a half-step inerval from the third degree does not sound so bad when played against a CM7.

What about G dominant 7. Everybody suggest to use the Mixolydian mode over this type of chord but if we analyse it we find ...

Code:
G Mixolydian scale
C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G - A - B
              1   2   3 4   5   6 b7

G7 chord tones:
C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G - A - B
              1       3     5     b7

... a half-step interval between the third and fourth degree, so again this means the fourth degree should be seen as an avoid note.

Should we conclude that an avoid note is always between the third and fourth degree when degrees 1-3-5 are unaltered?

Thanks
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject: Avoid note Shmanoid note Reply with quote

Hiya

The 4th over a major chord is definitely dissonant - but htis is not of itself a bad thing.

Levin/Abersold influenced players recognise the Lydian as the parent mode of the tonic major family chords

C, Cmaj7, Cmaj9, C6 etc...

C D E F# G A B D

George Russell came up with this idea. You can add other tones, too, if you want to go outside. I hear G# (Lydian augmented) as quite natural to the chord as well. I also put the b6/#5 into major a lot - more often than I sharpen the fourth, funnily enough.

However, my feeling as that putting the F into a line over a major family chord makes it move. Take this:

C E G A (C6)

Adding an F to this chord gives you this

C E F G A

Which could be seen as an inversion of an F chord, e.g.

F A C E G, or F

So just by putting the F in, you sound like you are pulling the tonic tonality into the subdominant.

Add the F to a Cmaj7 chord, and we have a dominant harmony, as we get the tritone B F.
C E F G B

or

G B F C E

I dopn't think that the fourth sounds bad in a dominant chord. The powerful tritone interval over-rides it.Also V-I's over tonic pedals are very comon in Mozart. He didn't think they were bad:

e.g.
F/C G7/C C


If you look at charlie parker transcriptions, you will often see him superimposing V-I over a I chord. That's basically the same thing. So all in all, I think you could look upon the F note not as an avoid note, but as a dynamic note.

It also means you could re-harmonise a (IV) ii-V-I like this. Sounds good to me:

C6add11
Cmaj11 (with 3rd)
Cmaj7#11

What do you think? Are my ears cracked?
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Christian
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, on reflection the sequence above sounds much better if Cmaj7#11 is replaced with a plain old Cmaj7.
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Bjorn



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 1037
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:39 am    Post subject: avoidnotes Reply with quote

I dont believe in avoidnotes,
everythimg is possible if you train your ear.
most in-ear-falling: the majos scale, then the lydian, and then you can continue through the circle of fourths and for every step you go, you´ll get one more step away from ¨home¨......
Ex: C major, no # G major:1# D major 2#, and so on......
I also like the lydian augmented alot, and if you think about it, C lydian augmented=C D E F# G# A B If you *unite* the A and B notes to A#/Bb, then you have a Wholetone scale wellworking over CM7.
And that sound is not impossible to control Wink
Bjorn.....
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bjorn - sounds like you think with the Lydian Chromatic concept. I likethe system because doesn't seem to draw a line and say 'this note is wrong'

My own appraoch uses a lot of George Russell's ideas, but in a different way.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there...
Yes, I think that I have this book, but Im not sure.
Is it a book where he gives alot of examples of the different *lydian scales* over the tune All the things....

If it is I like it alot....

Anyway, if you also like this kind of thinking, that no notes are wrong, I can recomand two books for you, The David Liebman´s Chromatic approach to jazz improvisation, and Jerry Bergonzi´s Theasures of intervallic improvisation or something like that, it is vol.5.

......Ps, Feel free to post some of your ideas, and if you like, enter my post in the forumsubject ii-V-I, to see some of my ideas and stuff that I like and use.

Bjorn....
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Christian
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bjorn - looked at your post. Some interesting ideas. I like the Coltrane sub a lot. Do you sometimes strip away the V chords, to apply it in a tighter spot? E.g.:

D-7 G7 CM7
AbM7 EM7 CM7

I find the EM7/G sound particularly cool.
Minor is also good

D-7b5 G7b9 C-7
Ab-7 E-7 C-7

or in minor elevenths
Ab-11 E-11 C-11

The Dave Liebman book looks perfectly terrifying. May look at it when I have a spare decade.

Actually I find the study of classical music theory quite helpful. I have started interpreting chord changes from a more 'functional' bias these days. Also the idea of borrowed minor key chords simplifies a lot of explainations- especially things like Tadd Dammeron turnarounds.

As far as some of the more 'outside' ideas you mentioned, I am rapidly discovering just how much freedom one has in jazz improvisation. Basically there are only two zones - outside and inside. The inside zone doesn't have a clear edge, and with a good theory you can really push from inside into outside without 'jumping' straight inot chaos (although you should feel free to do this if it suits.) For example, I this is how I view some harmonies related to a I major chord (the possiblities are almost llimitess - it's just a matter of working out how outside or inside a certain set of notes are going to be. You can do it by ear, or use theory to suggest new sounds you might not have considered:

IM7, III-7 - most inside (diatonic overtones in fifths)
VI- - inside (other overtones)
III7, VI7, II7, IM7+5 - slightly coloured inside
I7, IIIM7, bVIM7, - colouful inside
Im7 - distant inside (inc. blues)
IVM7, IV-7, V7, II-7 - motion to new region (formal outside)

*Note that some chromatic harmonies are more 'inside' than some outside harmonies - especially ones that involve the #5, #4 and #2.

Use of chord sequences rooted in these chords can create superposed harmonies - as over a pedal. This stuff should work for superposing harmonies over a static major traid or major seventh chord.

This thinking is generated from mathematical acoustics, and seems to be borne out by my ears. The natural 4th does not appear in any of the near overtones, unlike all the other notes of the chromatic spectrum. The interval does appear as an overtone of major 9th and major 6th chords, however. Major 9ths are therfore more static than sevenths - more self contained. Unlike the Russell book, I don't bother organising these things into scales - most of the scales are in use in jazz anyway.

Minor is more complicated, as minor is not acoustic.

Does this make any sense? The full theory is rather complex in applciation although the basic ideas are simple (some of the fundamental stuff I haven't really covered here.) I'm writing it all up at the moment.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Christian...
Yes, I think that it makes a perfect sense, but then again, maybe the next one which takes a look at it, might have a 180 degree-turned opinion.
That´s the wonderfull thing about music I think, that when it comes to this point, opinions are all up to the single person...

Anyway, I have been doing some stuff these last few days......
The first is simply that if we have a ii V I (in C)
And think of the G half-wholetonescale, then we find the 4 Dom7 chords it containes, G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7.
If we consider each one of these remaining three chords(Bb7, Db7 and E7 to be the substitute for the V7th chord (G7) and relates the respective iim7 chords for each (Fm7, Abm7 and Bm7, then we have three new iim7-V7 to approach the Dm7-G7 ii-V.

The Fm7 over Dm7 is that antique *Frenchlike*sound. Beautyfull, propably my favourite.

The Abm7 over Dm7, is the sub iim7.

The Bm7 over Dm7 is the keyquality sub. Bm7 =13 1 M3 5 over the Dm7 chord, the tones 13, 1 and 5 makes part of the dorian sound (among many others), But the M3 outlines the keyquality sub ( form minor to major/major to minor.)...An interesting one....

.....Well, that was the one thing.
This on is another one Chris mentioned in one of his lessons, that I have taken a little further, the one about Back cycling....

Over a ii V I (again... Very Happy )
Am7 D7 GM7.....

Then the backcycle is: Bm7 E7b9 over the Am7 chord, and Am7 D7b9 over the V chord...
Then I´d just put in the tritone-subs: Bm7 F7 E7b9 Bb7 over the Am7 chord, Am7 Eb7 D7b9 Ab7 over the D7.......
That is a very speciel one. Try approaching this in 16 notes with one of these chords per beat with, the arpeggios, pentatonics, the 1 2 m3 4 over minor chords, 1 2 3 5 over Dom7 chords-approach, triads and intervals...Etc....

Well, I´m sure you´re gonna have alot of fun with those, I am for sure...

Bjorn..
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Christian
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, IVm7 over IIm7 - one of my favourites too. Involving the b6 in subdominant (or what I call outside) chords seems to be a natural thing. Brahms, incidentally was a big big fan of IVm.

You ideas seem like 'outside' formulae - in that they generate with a set of colours that don't belong to the basic tonic region, before moving back inside. Everybody should be encouraged to come up with their own 'outside' colours, I think, rather than using one of the standard ones (like the altered scale.) Coltrane's use of 'Giant Steps' cycles over static chords is another example of this.

You could say that any line in jazz is movement of this kind either:

Inside
Outside-inside
inside-outside-inside

Or any permutation of these.

Everybody agrees that there are a limited number of inside notes - usually the third of the chord is the best - but outside colours can be arragned in an infinte number of ways.

I'll certainly have to give yours a whirl!

Cheers

Christian
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Christian,
I have to mention 2 of my favourite musicians:

Definately my nr.1 is Rudresh Mahanthappa,
And the other is Steve Coleman,
in case you dont know these guys, check them out, specially Rudresh.
They are both saxofonists....

Bjorn...
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Christian
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Coleman I've been meaning to check out for a long time.

The other guy Rudresh Mahanthappa, I confess, I don't know... Must check him out...

There's so much good stuff out there. Bird or Trane alone could generate a life's worth of study.
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Arteinvivo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bjorn,

Is it a good interpretation of your explanations:

Code:
      Bm7    F7     E7b9   Bb7          Am7    Eb7    D7b9   Ab7
|------7--------------------------|------5-------------2------------|
|------7------8------6------3-----|------5------4------4------6-----|
|------7------8------7------5-----|------5------6------5------7-----|
|------7------7------6------6-----|------5------5-------------6-----|
|------9------8------7------------|------7------6------5------------|
|------7--------------------6-----|------5--------------------6-----|
 
       Q      Q      Q      Q            Q      Q      Q      Q     

             GM7
|--------------------------|
|-------------3------------|
|-------------4------------|
|-------------4------------|
|--------------------------|
|-------------3------------|
              W


Thanks
[/code]
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes sure it is,
but the way I see it, the chords to be played by the group, is just the basic Am7-D7-Gmaj7....
And these chords:Bm7 F7 E7b9 Bb7 Am7 Eb7 D7b9 Ab7, is the chords you think of when, you see a ii-V Progression...
...So if I may give you an advice, then I think it is better to study things like this one as superimposed material, and not record the 8-chord progression, but only the simple ii-V-I, to improvise over.....

....Have you tried it? and do you like it?

I think it has a pretty energetic-hip flavour....

...Bjorn...
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rassi



Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:25 pm    Post subject: how do we identify avoid notes in a scale Reply with quote

If you play a c major 12345 (cdefg) you play a sound to F major or c7add9.
Play a c maj 7 and now, whit the aound af the chord in yours ear, play 12345.
Doo the same thing to a c7.
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preben
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