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ladies' club
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nezumi



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: ladies' club Reply with quote

hello Jazzerchick / Polly

We should get together and have our nails done. haha

Noting that you have played a good long while, I was wondering what sort of sexism you've encountered, if any. Maybe besides getting hit on or being ignored(because you're/I am married).

Do you feel you've had trouble finding other players to play with?
Not taken seriously?
Talked down to?

On the flip side, do you use your femininity as a tool? You are a pretty lady...
Men are (so easy!) more likely to accept being approached by an attractive woman.

Living in Texas must have it's own special problems, I imagine the mindset is more conservative there than say, Calif. (I know the Dems took both houses, but that doesn't change grass roots level conservatism)

I wonder sometimes about the attitude of the musicians that I know-all of whom are men- are they talking to me straight-up or is it 'softened' up some because I'm a girl. Yes? No?
Also when I occasionally make music with a man, they get a bit freaky if they feel outplayed.

Who else am I going to ask? I personally don't know any woman players (yet, I hope).

well, think upon it and I'll be looking for your answers. Please feel free to expand into other areas on this subject, I'm surely forgetting some of the more-or less-insidious ways that sexism rears it's ugly head.

nicole

And guys, this is not guy-bashing, really. It's just a part of life as a woman. I don't get alot of full-blown sexism, but it lurks softly out-there.
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nezumi



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Igiro

Fancy meeting you here.

you caught me red-handed! how does it feel?
I know that there was a bit of a swipe at men in my post, but don’t get me wrong, I do like men.
I’m not ANTI-MAN, I’d just like to hear a woman’s opinion on her dealings with men in this field.

I have to be out there dealing with men who are very nice and polite and friendly, but still ‘working it’.
You know: ‘working it’. sigh. C’mon, Igiro, be honest…I’ll bet you ‘work it’ a lot. Wink Woo-hoo.


Conservatism…..well, sir, I really don’t want to get into a right VS left with anyone here, This is a music board after all.
You live way down there, in the more conservative south and I live up here in the more liberal (and darned chilly)north. Never the twain shall meet. If we did, surely we could go on about the right/left dichotomy for ever.
White men have been ‘more’ equal for so long; Western society is coming to grips with equality for all, but we are not quite there.
I feel I am ultra-lucky to be a woman living in North America. I have the right to do with my life as I see fit, marry whom I please, work in the field I desire to. But even here, there are closed and small minds.
Just the other day at my kids’ hockey practice, some guy asked his kid “What are you? French? You have your skates on the wrong foot”
Ok, he didn’t know I was French (I assume) Did I say something to him? Maybe I should have…in French.
-Excusez moi, monsieur, vous avez une petite cervelle? Vous passez ces idées stupides a vos enfants?
Parlez-vous une deuxième langue? Et votre éducation? Avez-vous allez a l’université? Non?, Collège? Non! Ah zut alors…
Being French is something I can keep to myself, though. Being a woman is not.


Igiro, if I were to ask you a question, it would be more along the line of…what kind of strings should I try on my Samick Royale next?

Have a nice day!
Nezumi
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L4sleeko



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused Not ganging-up or anything nezumi, but some guys just like to play their guitars without all the other weirdness going on. Wink
On another topic; if you are attached, does your other half give you grief when you purchase a piece of equipment? I've had that problem in the past. Just curious about what it is like from your side of the fence. Thanks - Steve

?;^)~
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nezumi



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello Steve L4Sleeko,

other wierdness...understood. Does there have to be 'other wierdness'? So where does that leave me?
Alone at home? Sad
AWwww, not home alone again! Crying or Very sad sniff

I grew up with only brothers, I feel very comfortable around males, gee I have 3 boys too.

My man gives me no grief. I just have to ask.
No,scratch that... I just have to mention that I might like......then we talk about it a bit, pros and cons and reasons and $$$. We respect each other and talk about everything, so equipment purchases are never an issue.
He can buy those Volkey golf wedges if he really wants to. I don't want to know how much they cost, he knows we can afford them, that's what matters. We won't starve because he bought them.
Mostly, he likes to see me happy, as I do him, so whatever it takes, you know? It's a partership, not a battleground for dominance.
I would like a better classical guitar. I know that Christmas is around the corner, so I'm not going to go out and spend a big pile of cash on myself. I won't even bring it up, he knows. Come March or April, though....He may even surprise me in the meantime.
So that's the way it is with me and my man. It's very good.

have a nice day, Steve

nicole
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nezumi



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, man! Igiro....
that's alot of fodder! Very Happy

1. when you are this far north, Texas is south. Is southwest a pride thing? Like: DON'T say south! that groups us in with.......?
Ah, but I understand. I live in Northern Ontario, which is completly different than Southern Ontario. But only when you live in it. If you are from, say, the US, then there is no division in Ontario. Yes? No?

2.More attractive and taller people get better wages too! Liberals love science....you're killing me! Laughing

3.Sexism is universal, yes, but rooted in paternalism, and paternalism is very conservative. You say alot of women leading the charge, yes, but 50% or 5%? After 30 years? Closer to 5%. But it is a start. We had a woman Prime Minister here about 10 years ago, and she was a wanker! I didn't like her one bit! But she was only around for a year or so before her party was voted out. Even though I didn't like her I was glad to get a woman in office and get it done with. The precident has been set, now.
Not Hip-Hop, no I refuse to go there. YUCK.

4. Health Care. Well, when I lived in Michigan for a few years, I was shocked to pay to see a doctor!
So the gov't pays for basic health care with our taxes. but I never have to worry about whether I should have something taken care or not, simply because of financial restrictions.
Does my friend's son, born with a heart defect, not deserve the necessary surgery because they can't afford it? Or do they get the surgeries and live forever in debt? he's a healthy five-year old now. A nurse came to their home to help with the very sick baby. Would that happen with an HMO? (do you still have hmo's there?)

It's not all roses and daisies, though. There are wait times, which can be longer than reasonable at times, for sure. Not enough doctors, either.
I have extra coverage through employers, pays for dental and prescriptions, so I am luckier that some in that respect.

but this thread is not about healthcare and north/south liberal/conserative dualism.


5. I'm working on being as good a player as I can be. Very Happy
Do YOU have to be as good as......
Joe Pass
John Coltrane
Pat Martino
before you get respect from your peers, Igiro?

well, still have a nice day.
with respect,

nicole
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thomasross20



Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 139
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
And good looking people generally get a better reception from others


I can confirm that this is true.


























Wink Laughing
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thing



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom gets no respect at all.

Interesting to read about these little divides in North America. I tend to lump Americans together as one mass of people. Didn't realise that there were divisions as it were. I know Canucks don't like being mistaken for Yanks though. (What is a Yank, is it someone from the southern states or northern?) I have a mate who lives in Decatur Alabama who disappointingly doesn't talk like Boss Hogg on Dukes of Hazzard. Although he does make guitars out of old cigar boxes.

Preconceptions of how others are.

Although you are right to mention that this is a guitar forum and not a political one, I think that politics/regional differences do make music to a large extent, you can't seperate the two. However, for the purposes of reasoned debating about guitars and jazz on an internet forum, I don't mind if politics gets left in the background. Incidentally, we had a woman prime minister here too, she was crap as well.

You would be fine as an English guitar player by the way, you just have to do as you're told and go to the bar when asked....... Wink
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randyc



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Location: Eureka, CA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew, nice ripostes, nezumi. If your musical ability is as adept as your conversation, I'd sure like to hear you play !

Our chosen genre of self-expression has lacked female instrumental representation since it's inception while other forms of popular music have readily embraced women (especially classical and to a lesser degree, folk and country).

It's gotta' be real tough for a woman to make it as a jazz guitarist, shouldn't we be quick to encourage female participation ? After all, cross-pollinization benefits all of us and our chosen music !

Just my opinion.

Cheers,
randyc
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 62518
Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thing wrote:
Tom gets no respect at all.

Interesting to read about these little divides in North America. I tend to lump Americans together as one mass of people. Didn't realise that there were divisions as it were. I know Canucks don't like being mistaken for Yanks though. (What is a Yank, is it someone from the southern states or northern?)


Here's a reasonable definition:
http://members.aol.com/gordonkwok/yankee.html


Quote:

I have a mate who lives in Decatur Alabama who disappointingly doesn't talk like Boss Hogg on Dukes of Hazzard. Although he does make guitars out of old cigar boxes.


It's likely (but not always) as it may be where you are as well, educated and/or more worldly people tend to out grow their regional origin in dialect to a greater or lesser degree. In the states people from differing regions have differing dialects. People from Michigan, Maryland, Nebraska, California, Texas, New Jersey all have noticable differences in manner of speaking (usually more so abusive to the English language than simple variants of) and I'm certain you have the exact same thing in the UK. Saidly enough, here it is often taught by educators simply by example. I'm certain there is a Grammer and Composition teacher right now somewhere in the states saying "Y'all" to their class...Drives me nuts!
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thing



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That clears up the Yankee question nicely thank you! Bill (the guy from Decatur) certainly travels a lot which is how I know him. He will put on a southern drawl if I ask him specially.... Very Happy

We have different dialects here in England, I mean, you can't imagine The Beatles speaking with a Home Counties accent.....

I'm from the North of England, Yorkshire (by the way, we get a lot of American tourists in Lincoln and no matter how many times I tell them, they still pronounce 'shire' as 'shire'! It's 'sher'. So Yorkshire is York Sher, not York Shire) and we certainly have a strong regional accent where I'm from, although as you say, if you travel around you tend to loose the hard edges.
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L4sleeko



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 646

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Shocked Shocked By "wierdness" I mean "hidden agenda" - trying to score, whatever you wanna call it. When I'am playing, I kinda go into LA LA Land trying to concentrate on my playing. If I paired that with trying to hit on someone, my eyes would cross, as would my fingers and it would be one loud mess. Laughing
Some how, I don't picture you sitting home alone at night. You have far too much life in you. Wink You sound reasonable to me. And lucky you for finding someone compatable to settle down with.
Now for some technical questions; what kind of guitars do you play? How about amps? Do you have a particular guitarist you like to emulate? Thanks, Steve

?;^)~
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L4sleeko



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an Emily Remler CD. She totally kicks Butt on it. Honestly, the fact that she is a woman doesn't even come into play as far as I'am concerned. I just like to listen and be WoWED by it all. And holy-cannolly, what a technique . . . Surprised

(1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPUxdhwjKps&mode=related&search=

(2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM9me95tqlo&mode=related&search=

(3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii8uILjjZkY&mode=related&search=


Say Igiro, on #2, is that the red Gibson you're always crowing about (Emily's)? Cool

?;^)~

Now, after watching these videos, does it matter that she is a woman? Really??? Shocked
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jazzerchick



Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 968
Location: SanAntonio , Tx

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, nezumi/Nicole,
Wow! Whats going on? Nice to meet you.
In answer to some of your questions,I can say I've never really had
any problems with the girl/guy musician issue.When I started to play it
was for the love of music and I never thought of whether or not I would be
accepted. You know how it is when the music bug bites, girl or guy, it's all
about your passion and commitment.
From my experience, if you don't let being a girl musician be an issue,
the guys won't either. Right guys? If you do all the things you need to do to
be a serious player it won't matter. If someone gets "freaky" because you
play good, then you need to find better players to work with. They'll have
confidence in their abilities and they'll like it if you play good.
I played last night with a 17 piece jazz big band. 14 guys, 3 girls-
guitar, piano and trombone.
It's too bad you can't find people to play with. Are you near a larger
city where there might be a music scene? In the meantime, now you
know another chick player and we can chat.
About S. Texas, I hate politics. I just know that some pretty ecclectic music things happen around here. Austin always has interesting
and forward moving things going on. Right, Igiro?!! San Antonio's only
about 75 miles south. That's close for Texas. We have a very strong
latin influence in our music scene, cool, and a very good jazz radio
station,too cool! Lots of great musicians have come fromTexas, for
example, Herb Ellis, Emily Remler's mentor, by the way. See, he liked
fine girl players. So let's go get those c.d's out and start working on
those Joe Pass licks! P
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nezumi



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I leave the room for a few minutes and look at the mess you boys made!

And JChick came while I was out? and saw this mess?! Geez guys!
My hands are too full to take care of all this now, but I will deal with you messy, messy men later. PROMISE.

nezumi
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Last edited by nezumi on Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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nezumi



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello and thank you JazzerChick.

I'm glad to hear you haven't had the type of issues I asked about. I'm suprised you haven't gotten the ol'
"What, HER?".
I just wonder sometimes about being taken seriously....but I'll leave that for now. Smile

Thanks for the reply P.

nicole
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