PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum Index PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum
Jazz Guitar Discussion
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

mastering time signatures

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum Index -> The Jazz Guitar Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Guest






PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: mastering time signatures Reply with quote

I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on how to master odd time signatures such as 7/8.
Back to top
Christian
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really worry about it. It seems to work...

Seriously - why is 7/8 hard?
Back to top
nmcsm
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:47 am    Post subject: Time Signatures Reply with quote

The problem most people have is an assumption that a quarter note is always worth one beat. It is not.

The best way to think of note values is how they relate to each other.
1 Whole Note = 2 Half Notes = 4 Quarter Notes = 8 Eighth Notes = 16 Sixteenth Notes, etc.

7/8 time is not odd because we don't see much of it, it's odd because of the count, seven.

How to count 7/8 depends on the phrases used. One could count: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, or 1,2,3,4,1,2,3, or 1,2,3,1,2,3,4, or 1,2,1,2,1,2,3, or anything else that one could come up with. Most commonly, 7/8 is counted with either of the second and third counting examples I gave.

Remember, we're counting Eighth Notes, not Quarter Notes.

Does this assist you?
Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for bringing that to my knowlege.
Back to top
dkaplowitz



Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are really serious about getting good with odd times, a good place to start is with a book by Louis Bellson called "Odd Time Reading Text". Though you should probably go through the companion book first, this will give you a great start to feeling and reading in odd times.

Aside from that, listen to a lot of odd time music and do a lot of tapping and counting while it's going on.

Good luck with it.

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CreativeUsername



Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First step:
Start learning odd time signature riffs which have notes falling on most beats. These are easy to master because you don't have to worry about counting or anything - just play the notes evenly! There are plenty around and they are usually no problem to master - Take Five, Pink Floyd's Money or some Macedonian riffs (check out Vlatko Stefanovski). This will get you used to music not always being 3-4 or 4-4. You should be able to feel the groove happening in these TS too!

Make sure you are accenting the notes in the appropriate places, like nmcsm said.

Second step:
Learn riffs where the notes don't keep falling evenly. This means you will probably have to count in your head/out loud/tap your foot. Unless the tempo is very fast or there are a lot of weird number patterns to remember, this shouldn't be a problem.

If the tempo is fast, count half time and get used to breaking your count exactly half way through. Ie 1-2-3-41-2-3-41 or alternatively, you may be able to count half time over two bar sets.

If the number patterns are weird, learn them like you are learning a second language : First write them down and play slow, then try and wean yourself off the writing and play faster.

Third step:
Now things are going to get difficult. Learning to improvise on an odd time signature. If you want to sound at all natural, this will mean you can't do lots of counting unless you have a second brain in your anus or something.

The secret I have found is to really listen intently to one part of the rhythm section that is clearly outlining the rhythm. Normally you are lucky and one of the instruments is giving strong melodic/harmonic/rhythmic clues that will help you navigate the rhythm.

This is easiest when the backing is composed and you know it, or the riff is repetitive and you can learn it. Think Take Five again.

Basically you want to know where you should be changing chords and accenting because you are listening to the rhythm section, not because you COUNTED.

Eventually though you will be able to stop relying on the rhythm section too, particularly once you start improvising and practicing licks that work over odd signatures.

After odd time signatures:
Polyrhythms! I find these are really a lot more difficult than odd time signatures because often you can't count them properly. The key is to learn to actually hear what any given polyrhythm sounds like... in the same way as you learn what different chords sound like.

Most people have little trouble grasping the 3 on 2 polyrhythm as it is prevalent in many mainstream styles, particularly latin/spanish styles. The weirder ones like ones involving 5 or 7 are heaps more difficult.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dkaplowitz



Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Creative was alluding to trying to play 8ths or 16ths in 4/4 while accenting 3s, or 5s, or 7s. That's very good practice! In fact, it's great practice for learning polyrhythms b/c for instance the feel of 5:4 (5 notes evenly in the space of 4) is just a measure of 5/4 played in straight 16ths with the 16ths accented in groups of 5 (except only the 16ths falling after every 5th note is sounded). Hope that wasn't too confusing. Wink

O yeah, and if you're into odd times, polymeter, and polyrhythms, listen to a lot of Zappa. That'll really school you in the strange rhythms.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bjorn



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 1037
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:47 pm    Post subject: A great book. Reply with quote

Hi guys,
look for a book called Rítmica viva.
I think that its even made by a violonist, but its the best book of rhythms that I got...

Bjorn....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jazzy



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1660
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Bjřrn

Could you tell me a little more about that book "Rítmica viva"?
You must check out a guitarist called Nils Olav Johansen ( a norwegian guitarist, I`m norwegian too by the way. ) He plays in a band called Farmers Market.
I had him as a teacher last year, and he`s incredible when it comes to rhythms. I learned a lot about sequensing themes and the possibilities of rhytmic variations of him.

http://www.farmers-market.net/

Michael
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bjorn



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 1037
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jazzy wrote:
Hey Bjřrn

Could you tell me a little more about that book "Rítmica viva"?
You must check out a guitarist called Nils Olav Johansen ( a norwegian guitarist, I`m norwegian too by the way. ) He plays in a band called Farmers Market.
I had him as a teacher last year, and he`s incredible when it comes to rhythms. I learned a lot about sequensing themes and the possibilities of rhytmic variations of him.

http://www.farmers-market.net/

Michael


Hi Michael,
yes sure I can....
Well the book goes around counterpoint allmost through out.
Its a graet study for that matter to dedicate some time per day...
There isnt really much more to say about it, but with a great taste of knoweledge for rhythm, Im sure that you want get desapointed if buying it... Wink

Cheers, Bjorn....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boemfiedel



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or check out this article by Steve Vai. It's pretty good. He learned from the master!

http://www.vai.com/LittleBlackDots/tempomental.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jorge



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 1
Location: venezuela

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the class are great but ive got a hours job and listen others guitarrist
i am studing solos of joe pass and wes montgomery
_________________
i'm interested in play jazz guitar and know the toprcs or chords melodic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum Index -> The Jazz Guitar Forum All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group