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strange problem with computer recording, help!
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:24 am    Post subject: strange problem with computer recording, help! Reply with quote

So with every single multitracking program that I've tried on this computer I have the same problem:

If I record a track, then record a second track over it, everything gets recorded fine but the tracks are out of synch! I can't get the tracks to be in time together and I swear it's not because I'm playing with bad time - I tested it by recording with metronomes.

Is it something to do with too many programs running at once or something?

I'm not too computer savvy but I'm not a total dunce, any light anybody could shed on this would be appreciated!

yarg...
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jokron



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 656
Location: Skelleftea, Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you need ASIO-drivers for your soundcard, let's start with some questions:

What multitrack program do you use?

What soundcard do you have?

Do you have ASIO drivers for your soundcard?

ASIO (Audio Stream Input Output) is a protocol for low-latency digital audio specified by Steinberg.

What is ASIO? Definition according to Wikipedia: "ASIO provides an interface between an application and the sound card. Whereas Microsoft's DirectSound is typically for stereo input and output for consumers, ASIO provides for the needs of musicians and sound engineers. ASIO offers a relatively simple way of accessing multiple audio inputs and outputs independently. It also provides for the synchronization of input with output in a way that is not possible with DirectSound, allowing recording studios to process their audio via software on the computer instead of using thousands of dollars worth of separate equipment. Its main strength relies in its method of bypassing the inherently high latency of operating system audio mixing kernels, allowing direct, high speed communication with audio hardware."

You could start reading here:

http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/index.php?skip=1
http://www.asio4all.com/

...and if you feel like testing, download one of the drivers. I have tried the kX-project driver on a Soundblaster Live card and it worked perfect, not the best audio quality, but good enough if you're not planning on making commersial CD:s. But most important: it fixed the sync problems I had, similar to the ones you describe.

I have also tried the Audiophile 2496 soundcard, very good and now I use E-MU 0404 soundcard. Both the Audiophile and the E-MU soundcard comes with ASIO-drivers and delivers also a very good sound quality...

/Jan Olof
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanks Jan! I don't have time to try it out right now but I will later...much appreciated!
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JakeJew



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't get that driver to do anything...I have a soundblaster 24 bit...every recording program has the same problem...help!
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JakeJew



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh ok I figured out the one I dled doesn't work with my soundcard, so I'm trying the ASIO4All link...
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JakeJew wrote:
oh ok I figured out the one I dled doesn't work with my soundcard, so I'm trying the ASIO4All link...


Jan's right, the ASIO4ALL is your best bet for a soundblaster, that delay is latency and the ASIO may help a little bit and also provide you the ability to adjust the latency.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorecki wrote:
JakeJew wrote:
oh ok I figured out the one I dled doesn't work with my soundcard, so I'm trying the ASIO4All link...


Jan's right, the ASIO4ALL is your best bet for a soundblaster, that delay is latency and the ASIO may help a little bit and also provide you the ability to adjust the latency.


ok so I tried that link and I installed what I got, but it didn't seem to be affecting the recording at all...how do I make sure the ASIO4ALL is being a functional driver?

Or what the hell am I to do? Gettin a little frustrated...gonna call soundblaster help tomorow if I can't get it figured out
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jokron



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 656
Location: Skelleftea, Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JakeJew, please answer some questions, and I shall see if I can help you:

What recording software you are using? Cubase, Cakewalk, Ableton or what?

Do you have PC or Mac?

What Soundblaster card do you have?

Are you sure that the musicprogram you have is using the ASIO. After installation you must go to the music programs " global settings", "preferences" "device setup" or what it is called to choose the ASIO driver. You may also go to "Multimedia Properties" and choose the ASIO driver...

It's hard to help if I don't know what equipment you are using...but here is how you use the kXdriver in Cubase:

http://members.home.nl/nahutec/kxtutor/cubase/kxcubasesx.htm

Here's another one you can try:

http://www.asio2ks.de/

...but I think you have to make some settings to get it to work...

/Jan Olof
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JakeJew



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jokron wrote:
JakeJew, please answer some questions, and I shall see if I can help you:

What recording software you are using? Cubase, Cakewalk, Ableton or what?

Do you have PC or Mac?

What Soundblaster card do you have?

Are you sure that the musicprogram you have is using the ASIO. After installation you must go to the music programs " global settings", "preferences" "device setup" or what it is called to choose the ASIO driver. You may also go to "Multimedia Properties" and choose the ASIO driver...

It's hard to help if I don't know what equipment you are using...but here is how you use the kXdriver in Cubase:

http://members.home.nl/nahutec/kxtutor/cubase/kxcubasesx.htm

Here's another one you can try:

http://www.asio2ks.de/

...but I think you have to make some settings to get it to work...

/Jan Olof


The sound card is soundblaster live! 24 bit, I have a PC. I've used and have a few things..audacity, cool edit pro, adobe audition, creative wave studio
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jokron



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I presume you have Windows XP installed...

At first you must ensure that The soundcard uses the right driver:

Start > Settings > Control Panel > Sounds and Audio Devices > Audio Devices. Choose the right device.

Check that you have sound when playing your guitar and playing a backing track. If not...open the mixer in kXproject http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/shots.php?language=en and tick/untick some inputs/outputs until you get some sound. If I remeber right I had to tick/untick the AC97 input channel to get sound...but I'm not shure...

I'm not familiar with ASIO4all...and not some ov the multitrackings software you refer to, but I see at Audacitys homepage manual that you hav a "Timeshift Tool" that can be used if the tracks are out of sync...have you tried that one?

"You may notice that when you play the two tracks you recorded together, they aren't synchronized. This is unavoidable to a certain extent, though future versions of Audacity may try to minimize it even more. To fix it, you will need to grab the Time Shift tool and slide one of the tracks around until it sounds right."


Read mor on http://audacity.sourceforge.net/help/documentation

Let me hear what happens!

Jan Olof
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appears Jan has this entirely under control! Thumbs Up!

JakeJew, a Soundblaster Live isn't even a true 24bit interface, it's emulated. Newer soundblasters (audigy 4) have better converters and is true 24bit but again will still suffer from the same problems you are having.

Bottom line answer. Get a REAL audio interface! The M-Audio 2496 PCI card is a really good starter card for ~$100.00 US and the difference (especially latency) compared to the SB will blow you away...seriously!
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I'm still working on all this stuff, but just for reference keep in mind I'm not talking about things being slightly imperfect: this stuff is OFF, like sometimes .5 seconds!

Also, when multitracking, things start in time and gradually get more out of time as it goes on, so I can't even do a simple shift edit!
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jokron



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JakeJew wrote:
Also, when multitracking, things start in time and gradually get more out of time as it goes on, so I can't even do a simple shift edit!


If it gradually get more out of time I suspect you have different sample rates on the tracks! If One track has the sample rate 48 kHz and the other 44.1 kHz I think that you will get this effect...could that be the case??? Sample rate 44.1 is commonly used with audio CD:s and mp3-files but 48 kHz is used mostly by DVD, DAT and digital TV...
If I'm not totally wrong the kX-driver are locked to 48 kHz and you have to convert whatever backing track or earlier recorded tracks in 44.1 kHz to 48 kHz before you can use them together. I don't know if that is possible in audacity...?

Have you tried to record one track first with rythmguitar and then another track with sologuitar? If you do so they should be syncronized (eventually you must adjust one track with the Time Shift Tool in audacity...If you get them syncronized you can be sure of that the sample rate issue is the problem...

...But...to solve your problem and make things easy I agree with Gorecki...buy the M-Audiophile 2496 soundcard and Cubase SE3 and you will never have such problems again...it will cost you about $200 but it's well worth it...

Another multitracking shareware software can be found here: http://www.cockos.com/reaper/index.php

...anyway, hope you can solve the problem, I know how you feel about it, I've been there too...and Gorecki, that's when I learned a thing or two... Laughing mostly by trial and error...

/Jan Olof
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JakeJew



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

will a new soundcard really do the trick? I mean is the SB24 that primitive? I'm maybe going to try to set up one of my old computers right now and see what happens...I was able to multitrack on those!
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JakeJew wrote:
will a new soundcard really do the trick? I mean is the SB24 that primitive? I'm maybe going to try to set up one of my old computers right now and see what happens...I was able to multitrack on those!


YES! Primitive isn't the word I would use, not intended to be used in this manner is more appropriate.

The computer itself has a huge cause and effect. How much RAM does the system have? if it's short, it multiplies the problem. But honestly otherwise is mostly details and tweaking, the biggest is the sound card. The D/A converters in a sound blaster are cheap..I mean cheap! Especially the Live (being Creatives economy card). They are simply not intended to be used in this manner.

Here's an example, when I got my first copy of Cubase, I tried to run it on a 1Ghz laptop having 1gb of ram with the internal audio interface (AC97 compatible..which basically is what an SB is). I would get latency exactly how you described, seemed like a half second. Then I went for the ASIO4ALL and some system tweaking. Then I could get about 5 tracks before things went silly. THEN I bought and M-Audio Audiophile Firewire unit and instantly was getting ~16 tracks with out a hitch!
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