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Attention Deficit problem

 
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MarkE



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Attention Deficit problem Reply with quote

Hello, I have been lurking around here for a while and really appreciate what I have learned from all of you.

I found out a couple of years ago that I have a unique form of ADD that only affects what I read i.e. I can't remember what I read, but I can remember what I listen to. I take a medication for it now and I can totally concentrate now and remember what I read (text.)

I still have a problem with reading music however Sad I can sit down and play a melody or a solo with sheet music in front of me, but if I turn the chair around and face the other way, I can't replay it! If I practice a tune many, many times, I can usually remember the first 10-15 measures and then I loose it.

It's very frustrating. Has ayone else had this problem and if so, how have you dealt with it?

Thanks in advance for any sympathy or helpful suggestions ...
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jazzerchick



Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 968
Location: SanAntonio , Tx

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learn by phrases like Igiro says, also try to recognize sequences.
Anything that repeats. Rhythm patterns and harmony patterns too.
Work on your ear training if your ears remember better than your
eyes. There are a lot of great musicians in that boat. There are also
lots of great readers that can't play a lick without music and can't play
at all by ear, so don't get frustrated. just let your ear help you.
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Bjorn



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds serrious, but I just felt that I wanted to ask. What is ADD??

Bjørn.
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bjorn wrote:
Sounds serrious, but I just felt that I wanted to ask. What is ADD??


Attention Deficit Disorder - It an very general diagnosis term used not unlike Schizophrenia. Means very little. Confused
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MarkE



Joined: 10 May 2005
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Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bjorn wrote:
Sounds serrious, but I just felt that I wanted to ask. What is ADD??

Bjørn.


I had a lot of trouble with my memory, and a bit of trouble concentrating. Not a serious problem at all, but was causing some problems on the job. The meds work great, but not helping my reading and remembering sheet music.
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jazzclif



Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 153
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of people without a formal diagnosis of ADD find music to be just as tricky to memorize off sheets as you do.

I once worked with a pianist with amazing chops who couldn't play Happy Birthday without a leadsheet, no kidding. But put a basic real book type chart in front of him and he was free.

don't know exactly what was going on, but just a basic chord chart was all he needed to rip, and he could flat out rip. But he needed it like we all need O2 - couldn't function without it.

I just posted to ask you to ask yourself this question: how's your ear? A lot of us, and I'm very much like that, can absorb something we hear played nearly instantly but really suck at internalizing something from a lead sheet. I spent a lot more time cribbing off records than I did reading, probably because it produced results more quickly.

Reading and playing by ear are different to most of us, I think, and to make it more complicated, as individuals we differ even more, so there can't be a formula. If you learn better by ear, I'd say try to work that to your advantage.

Incidentally, I know ADD is often an overworked dx to the point of cliche, but if you went thru evaluation and are noticing improvement from meds, that's what's important. As to your absorbtion of info rates, well, get in line and beat the crap out of yourself like the rest of us. I'm blaming my mistakes on lactose intolerance! Laughing

Clif
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MarkE



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazzclif wrote:
A lot of people without a formal diagnosis of ADD find music to be just as tricky to memorize off sheets as you do.

I once worked with a pianist with amazing chops who couldn't play Happy Birthday without a leadsheet, no kidding. But put a basic real book type chart in front of him and he was free.

don't know exactly what was going on, but just a basic chord chart was all he needed to rip, and he could flat out rip. But he needed it like we all need O2 - couldn't function without it.

I just posted to ask you to ask yourself this question: how's your ear? A lot of us, and I'm very much like that, can absorb something we hear played nearly instantly but really suck at internalizing something from a lead sheet. I spent a lot more time cribbing off records than I did reading, probably because it produced results more quickly.

Reading and playing by ear are different to most of us, I think, and to make it more complicated, as individuals we differ even more, so there can't be a formula. If you learn better by ear, I'd say try to work that to your advantage.

Incidentally, I know ADD is often an overworked dx to the point of cliche, but if you went thru evaluation and are noticing improvement from meds, that's what's important. As to your absorbtion of info rates, well, get in line and beat the crap out of yourself like the rest of us. I'm blaming my mistakes on lactose intolerance! Laughing

Clif


lol ... thanks Clif

Interesting that you should compare the visual with the audible characteristics of music. When reading a book or article etc, I can remember it much better if I read it aloud -- getting the information through two senses is much more effective.

I can listen to a piece of music many times and later when I have the sheet music in front of me, I have trouble "hearing" the music in my head at the same time I am reading the score. I haven't tried playing along with the recording -- that might help a lot. As soon as I discover what formula works for me, I am sure this problem will improve. Thanks for the tips. Oh, and BTW, it's much easier to plan my own music than someone elses' ... lol

EDITED TO ADD: I did see an improvement when I started to play mid-day instead of late at night (sometimes while trying to watch Law & Order Wink
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Smokey



Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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Location: Tuscon, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is pretty interesting to me. I didn't have ADD as a kid because it hadn't been invented yet, instead I was just considered stupid and lazy even though I usually had the highest IQ in the room. I can remember sitting in school looking out the window, thinking about motorcycles and wishing I could get out of school and actually DO something.

When I finally did get out of school I spent a few months doing nothing, then I started taking some serious guitar lessons and working with college level materials. I loved it!

I went into music as an occupation in my early 20s and did OK, not great, just OK. I probably was making as much or more in 20 - 30 hours per week as I would have working 40 hours doing anything else I was capable of doing. I left it in my mid 20s and haven't really looked back. I play better now than I did when I was teaching and playing all the time but my sight reading isn't nearly as sharp as it used to be.

Memorization became much easier once I learned to think in terms of chord progressions and changing tone centers. Suddenly the structure of the pieces bacame simpler. Might I suggest doing a lot of ear work, playing along with recorded music etc, with a view to understanding the harmonic structure of the piece.

I know that it seems counter intuitve to tell a reading musician that they should concentrate on playing by ear but I think that this would help you (assuming that you aren't already accomplished at plying by ear). reading and playing by ear are two seperate skills and I feel that it helps greatly to have both.

The old joke goes; Want to make a guitar player shut up? Put some sheet music in front of him. Want to make a piano player shut up? Take away his sheet music.

This joke well illustrates the problem that can happen to any of us. Bill Evans was classically trained and read well, but he had to take time out to learn how music worked when he decided to pursue jazz. Programs that teach reading don't usually teach how to deal with music visually, in your head. In order to successfully play by ear you must be able to visualize music in some form or another. if you can meld that skill with sight reading you will have the best of both worlds.
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MarkE



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smokey wrote:
This is pretty interesting to me. I didn't have ADD as a kid because it hadn't been invented yet, instead I was just considered stupid and lazy even though I usually had the highest IQ in the room. I can remember sitting in school looking out the window, thinking about motorcycles and wishing I could get out of school and actually DO something.

When I finally did get out of school I spent a few months doing nothing, then I started taking some serious guitar lessons and working with college level materials. I loved it!

I went into music as an occupation in my early 20s and did OK, not great, just OK. I probably was making as much or more in 20 - 30 hours per week as I would have working 40 hours doing anything else I was capable of doing. I left it in my mid 20s and haven't really looked back. I play better now than I did when I was teaching and playing all the time but my sight reading isn't nearly as sharp as it used to be.

Memorization became much easier once I learned to think in terms of chord progressions and changing tone centers. Suddenly the structure of the pieces bacame simpler. Might I suggest doing a lot of ear work, playing along with recorded music etc, with a view to understanding the harmonic structure of the piece.

I know that it seems counter intuitve to tell a reading musician that they should concentrate on playing by ear but I think that this would help you (assuming that you aren't already accomplished at plying by ear). reading and playing by ear are two seperate skills and I feel that it helps greatly to have both.

The old joke goes; Want to make a guitar player shut up? Put some sheet music in front of him. Want to make a piano player shut up? Take away his sheet music.

This joke well illustrates the problem that can happen to any of us. Bill Evans was classically trained and read well, but he had to take time out to learn how music worked when he decided to pursue jazz. Programs that teach reading don't usually teach how to deal with music visually, in your head. In order to successfully play by ear you must be able to visualize music in some form or another. if you can meld that skill with sight reading you will have the best of both worlds.



Thanks Smoky. Your comments are very helpful. I understand music theory pretty well, especially as it pertains to jazz guitar, but I need to spend more time hearing and feeling the harmonic structure of what I listen to or try to play.
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Smokey



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope it helps.
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Viper



Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 568
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I could help as I have difficulty in getting stuff really into memory.

Have you tried singing the melody as you play it not necessarily accurately, (scatting along) but in away which will remind of the rhythm and give an idea of the pitches a lot of musicians who do not put their instrument in their mouth do this as a help. Most guitarists fall into this category most sax players do not.

Another thing is to analyse the tune often to learn say a 32 bar standard you only have to learn 16 bars (AABA) with a two bar variation on the first A. Sometimes the B section will be the same or similar to the A, except raised 4th. so you only have to learn 8 bars and transpose.
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MarkE



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viper wrote:
I wish I could help as I have difficulty in getting stuff really into memory.

Have you tried singing the melody as you play it not necessarily accurately, (scatting along) but in away which will remind of the rhythm and give an idea of the pitches a lot of musicians who do not put their instrument in their mouth do this as a help. Most guitarists fall into this category most sax players do not.

Another thing is to analyse the tune often to learn say a 32 bar standard you only have to learn 16 bars (AABA) with a two bar variation on the first A. Sometimes the B section will be the same or similar to the A, except raised 4th. so you only have to learn 8 bars and transpose.


Hi Viper,
Those are helpful tips. I will give them a try. First I have to take the guitar out of my mouth though Wink
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Viper



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing I forgot is say to learn the lyric, if there is one and follow the words either by vocalising or in your head, but may be that's as difficult as learning the tune?

One of the great things about jazz is that you can decide what approach to take. Some cats seem to be able to play about 200 standards in several different keys while others concentrate on a small repetoire which they develop over a long period. e.g Lee Konitz. After all Coltrane toured the world giving out My Favourite Things for an hour every night. ( I am not for one moment suggesting that Trane had a limited repetoire).

Many jazz musicians have developed expressive qualities from what might be regarded as technical weakness in other idioms, think of Django's chromatic runs using 1 and half fingers on his left hand. Miles Davis imperfect embouchure any teacher would have tried to stop him playing like that. Ridiculous. Find your own approach and your 'weakness' becomes strength, Maybe your ADS will allow to produce more original improvisation as you won't be able to string a load of stock phrases togrether and call it improvisation.
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MarkE



Joined: 10 May 2005
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Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viper wrote:
Another thing I forgot is say to learn the lyric, if there is one and follow the words either by vocalising or in your head, but may be that's as difficult as learning the tune?

One of the great things about jazz is that you can decide what approach to take. Some cats seem to be able to play about 200 standards in several different keys while others concentrate on a small repetoire which they develop over a long period. e.g Lee Konitz. After all Coltrane toured the world giving out My Favourite Things for an hour every night. ( I am not for one moment suggesting that Trane had a limited repetoire).

Many jazz musicians have developed expressive qualities from what might be regarded as technical weakness in other idioms, think of Django's chromatic runs using 1 and half fingers on his left hand. Miles Davis imperfect embouchure any teacher would have tried to stop him playing like that. Ridiculous. Find your own approach and your 'weakness' becomes strength, Maybe your ADS will allow to produce more original improvisation as you won't be able to string a load of stock phrases togrether and call it improvisation.


It's funny in a way: I find it much easier to improvise because I don't have to remember that much Wink
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steve



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was in school, just the other day. But then I think it was a park on the other side of town. Like a Bbm7 but without the receipi I can't be sure.
Anyway, back to the beginning if you'd prefer, I'll get the first round in!
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