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Altered Dom Licks
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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:38 am    Post subject: Harmonised scales Reply with quote

Here's another idea to generate creative thought and altered dom ideas. Use harmonised scales.
The first ideas gives a really hip sound that I love, basically I'm using the Em7 from the harmonised C scale (D Dorian scale) over the Dm7 chord, and then moving it into a IVm cadence. The possibilities are endless.

The second idea uses a harmonised G altered scale (Ab jazz minor). I used a quartal harmony and just moved it up the fret board.

Hope you like!

Code:
(Dm11   Em7) ( Fm7)       (C6/9)
Dm7           G7           C
---------7--|--8---------|------||
--6------8--|--9------9--|--8---||
--5------7--|--8------8--|--7---||
--5------7--|--8------8--|--7---||
--5---------|------------|------||
------------|------------|------||




(Dm9 Dm7) (Ab mel minor)  (C6/9)
Dm7       G7              C
---------|-----------11--|--10---||
-5--6----|-8--9--11--11--|--10---||
-5--5----|-6--8--10--10--|--9----||
-3--3----|-6--8--9---9---|--9----||
-5--5----|---------------|-------||
---------|---------------|-------||

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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Harmonised scales Reply with quote

Great stuff, Steve, thanks for being generous in sharing these interesting ideas, it's appreciated.

I don't know whether it was because of your posts or not, but I had been thinking a lot about the IV iv- cadence in substitution of a ii V - it's a cool sound, especially in bop. I'm new to jazz, and most of my education about chord tones wouldn't have had me playing the root of the I over a V7 chord (as it's the fourth of the V7 chord)

But I was surprised to hear and see that in jazz (at least more up tempo stuff) it's very common to treat the V7 like a I or IV. Fun possibilities in this.

So anyway, I have been working on "Chi Chi"

The big ii V in bars 9-10 is Bbm7 Eb7, but the melody makes it more like

Bbm7 |Db Db- |

but I've been having fun treating it like

Bbm7 |Bbm7 Bbm7b5 |

As the melody has the Bb going in the bar of V7, so I could call that Db- a Db-6, same thing as Bbm7b5

Definitely a fun way to cover a ii V, just ii-7 to ii-7b5

okay I'm done...
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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:45 am    Post subject: alt dom ideas Reply with quote

Good one JakeJew!
Makes for a very smooth and subtle line by just tweaking the minor chord into a m7b5.

Here's another idea. it could be analysed in many many ways, but the two concepts i was thinking of were: turn the ii V into a four chord prog, two chords per bar (in other words extend the cycle out a bit), and use a cycle of dominant chords.

First idea cycles in as per usual. Next ideas are focused on the tritone sub for the V7.

Hope you like 'em. Let me know what you think.

Code:
(E7#9 A13b9) (D13 G13#9) (Cmaj7)
Dm7          G7          C
-------6----|--7----6---|--3---||
--8----7----|--5----5---|--5---||
--7----6----|--5----4---|--4---||
--6----5----|--4----3---|--5---||
--7---------|-----------|------||
------------|-----------|------||


(Bb13 Eb9) (Ab13b9 Db9) (Cmaj7)
Dm7        G7           C
-8----6---|--5-----4---|--3--||
-8----6---|--6-----4---|--1--||
-7----6---|--5-----4---|--4--||
-6----5---|--4-----3---|--2--||
----------|------------|-----||
----------|------------|-----||



(Bb13 Eb7#9b5)(Ab13 Db9)  (C6/9)
Dm7         G7         C
---3----5---|-6-----9---|--10--||
---3----7---|-6-----6---|--10--||
---5----6---|-5-----8---|--9---||
---6----5---|-4-----9---|--9---||
------------|-----------|------||
------------|-----------|------||


Try them over a regular two five walking bass line and use sparce accented comping.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Re: alt dom ideas Reply with quote

neat stuff. I think it's great to consider the quantity of chords in any given scenario. Nevermind what they are - having four chords per bar is going to have a different feel than one chord for every 8 bars.

It's fun to take a tune and reharm it in those two polar extremes - with as few chords as possible, and with as many chords as possible.

For the latter, using iii IV ii Vs for everything yields a different sound with the same basic target points. Ex: what's this?

Code:

Em7  A7 | Dm7 G7 |Am7 D7 | Gm7 C7

Fm7 Bb7 |Bm7  E7 |Em7    |A7

Em7 A7  |Dm7 G7  |Em7 A7 |Dm7 G7|

Or alternately, what's this?

Cmaj7   |%       |%      |%         |

C7      |F7      |Cmaj7  |%        |


Personally, I'm kind of a fan of cheesy fusion reharms. Here's one for Billy's Bounce - it works with the melody notes. Obviously add lots of 9ths and 11s and cheesy fusion voicings Smile

Code:


F7b5     |Dm7       |Gm7      |Dm7  Dbmaj7

Bbmaj7   |Dbmaj7    |Abmaj7   |Am7   Ab7

Gm7  D7  |Gbmaj7 C7 |Ebmaj13  |Bbmaj7


So, more chords, less chords. It's fun that on one end of the spectrum we've got more movement - more iii VI ii Vs, more dominant, more chords! On the other end there's the real sparse kind of floaty stuff - maj7s don't really move like other stuff does.

I've spent a lot of time with the floaty stuff, recently I've been trying to get my ass in gear and play some bop!
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1129
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's some really great stuff here!! Cool Thanks for sharing your ideas!

Here's a few I've gotten good mileage from:

On this one I'm thinking Db major triad over the G (giving me a G7b5b9 sound) followed by a G augmented triad resolving to the C minor7

Code:
 G7         Cm7
|--143---|---
|-2---4--|---
|1-----4-|5--
|-------5|---
|--------|---
|--------|---


This is just a different result from the same idea as above - Dbmaj arp to Gaug over the G7 resolving to the Cm9:

Code:
 G7        Cm9
|----143-|---
|---2---4|3--
|--1-----|---
|-3------|---
|4-------|---
|--------|---


This one is a whole-tone scale:

Code:
 G7               Cm7
|3573------------|---
|----4684--------|---
|--------4684----|---
|------------5795|7--
|----------------|---
|----------------|---


And a variation of the above whole-tone:

Code:
 G7               Cm7
|3753------------|---
|----4864--------|---
|--------4864----|---
|------------5975|7--
|----------------|---
|----------------|---



Paul
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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:49 am    Post subject: alt dom ideas Reply with quote

Thanks PaulD for sharing. I really like the biimaj7 idea. Got me thinking. Broke me out of a rut. I always use that as the dom chord, but man it opened a whole can of worms for me when I started to use it as the Dm7!
Especially with comping.
I learned that whole Tone pattern years ago from a great session bass player called Carol Kaye. Ever heard of her? She has a site. Never got around to reworking though!

Please give us another if you get the time.
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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 7:00 am    Post subject: alt dom licks Reply with quote

Here's another idea, that's an obvious but effective one.

Do a ii V7 I in the relative minor (or major if the original key is minor)


Code:

(Bm7b5)      (E7#9#5)   (Am9)
Dm7          G7         C
------------|-----8----|--7----||
------------|--8--8----|--5----||
--7--9--10--|--7--7----|--5----||
--7---------|--6--6----|--5----||
--8---------|----------|-------||
------------|----------|-------||

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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: losing track Reply with quote

mmmm just realised that I already used that idea in a previous Shocked

Crying or Very sad does this mean I'm running out of ideas? I know Herbie wouldn't be even close!
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an easy concept that can yield some nice results. Over ii-V-I in major keys, I will often play an idea over the iim7 then when I get to the V7 just repeat that same or similar idea a half-step above where I
played the original before resolving to the I chord. This also works with
moving the original iim7 line a minor 3rd up as well. Here's a short exapmple of what I mean. I'm basically playing over the tonal center (Cmajor) using either the major scale or pentatonics, just shifting up either one fret or 3 frets from the original key when I play over the V chord.

http://media.putfile.com/25166

Paul
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The funny thing about all this is that I've realized I actually don't think about any of this stuff while playing over altered dominants. I'm more just thinking about rhythmic phrases landing on and decorating chord tones - if I feel like throwing an altered note in, there it goes.
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1129
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what you mean. I do most of my thinking when I woodshed. When I'm actually playing, I try not to think but just react to what I hear and hope that what I've worked on will find it's way out at the appropraite points.

Paul
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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:12 am    Post subject: alt dom Reply with quote

Nice one Paul D, sounded particularly good with the double time. Don't suppose you would like to transcribe that run?

I picked up a similar idea from a sax player on a Chet Baker album (can't remember name off of top of mt head) which involved creating an Am pent (Am7) idea over the Dm7 and then bumping it up a half step before resolving it back down a half step. Sounds hip.

I'll have to figure out how to do all this recording stuff soon so I can post some ideas/pieces (be patient I only just learned how to use the "code" thingy Laughing ), because my playing is uncanninly similar to yours in phrasing and shape. You are obviously a big fan of the 40's, 50's and 60's jazz, and I would wager that you rip of more horn players than guitar players?

I've learned a lot from your posts already (all types) so please continue to share.

As for the old argument of what to think when playing, I agree, just sing. BUT it's woodshedding the concepts/chords/ etc that gives us quick and skilled access to the sounds we hear in our head while we are soloing. IMO

Although I must admit my playing does tend to lean a fair bit into clicheville, but that's because of what I am hearing, and I like those sounds Laughing

appreciate chattin' with you guys, if you ever come over to West Aussie be sure to come for a jam!
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1129
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: alt dom Reply with quote

steve wrote:
You are obviously a big fan of the 40's, 50's and 60's jazz, and I would wager that you rip of more horn players than guitar players?


Thanks steve! Yes, I do steal a lot from horn players. I grew up listening to my Dad's Big Band records. I am a big Sonny Stitt fan and I've learned (stolen) a lot from him. Of course I love Miles, Trane & Bird too, among many others. But I've gotten a lot out of guitarists as well, like Joe DIorio, Joe Pass, a little Martino, a little Carlton. I tend to just get the licks that I really like from these guys and then figure out why they sound the way they do and try to come up with my own version. This way, I figure I always playing the sounds I like.

I've also sensed similarities in our approach just from reading your posts. I would love to hear you play.

Thanks,

Paul
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steve



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 867
Location: oz

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject: alt dom concepts Reply with quote

Ditto for the ripping off idea. I'll often sit in bed with the Ominibook or another transcrition and analyse what those cats were doing over certain chords. (then i'll have to get back up again for a cup of tea 'cause my mind will be whizzing! ha ha, great bedtime reading)

Here's another idea:
Using symetrical scales/pattern/ ideas
For this I look into a scale and find chords or triads, then I know that they will work to move around in that scales intervals. The augmented chord is too obvious so have chosen a G7#9 and a G#o (G/G#) from the G half whole scale.
Code:
---------------------------
-5---6---8---9---11---12---
-4---6---7---9---10---12---
-3---6---6---9---9----12---
-4---5---7---8---10---11---
---------------------------


(Dm11)   (E7#5  Fo)   (Cmaj7)
Dm7        G7          C
--------|------------|--7--||
--6-----|---8----9---|--5--||
--5-----|---7----9---|--5--||
--5-----|---6----9---|--5--||
--5-----|---7----8---|-----||
--------|------------|-----||


Like? add?
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vlad



Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject: need help with these charts Reply with quote

apologize for a very basic question...
i would like to know how to read the charts you guys posted but i dont
know how. i know regular notation (play some classical music) can anybody explain?. I would really appreciate it. Thanks
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