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Wildfield



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 406

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
Jap is short for Japanese and nothing more, as far as i am concerned.


Perhaps. However, it was used between the 1930's through the 1960's pretty liberally in America to racially discriminate, demean and disenfranchise Americans of Japanese ancestry much like the terms nigger, spic, kike, etc. have been used to oppress other Americans.

lgiro wrote:
...but maybe i'm naive.


Perhaps...or possibly ignorant. I mean that with all due respect.

lgiro wrote:
i think it has more to do with nationalism than racism. admittedly, there were and are nationalistic fissures between the two countries, for obvious reasons.


Yes, I guess in reference to products, issues or events from other countries it is more a nationalistic issue. That is why I said you may not have meant to sound racially inflammatory.

lgiro wrote:

if a person with light skin says something critical of another country or it's people, and that other country is populated by people with darker skin, then the light skinned person is deemed a "racist" and is engaged in "hate". but not so if its the other way around, or if both parties share the same race. that's bullshit. but then, so is all PC "logic". i dont fall for it, and i don't live or think by PC rules.


Thank you for sharing your insights and knowledge on racism. Actually, in America, racism does not usually apply to whites in this country making derogatory comments about people of color in another country. Racism in America usually refers to the politically dominant race utilizing laws and language to discriminate, demean, disenfranchise and oppress certain populations of minority races. It is more political and institutional than it is individual.

lgiro wrote:

and no, i would only deem a person to be a thief if they were in fact engaged in thievery. or if they were protecting, or aiding and abetting a thief. so you tell me, who does that apply to?


Hmmm. Your call Igiro. I'm not about to take the cyber space nor time to sway your opinion of who is or who isn't a thief. Sounds like you already have this one figured out for yourself.

Again, thanks for expounding your thoughts on intellectual property. That was mainly was I was interested to discuss in the first place.
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Wildfield



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 406

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We seem to have drifted off the topic Igiro...perhaps my fault for taking umbrage with an adjective that happens to bring back bad memories of my American childhood in the 60's and 70's.

If you choose to use such language and/or feel like whites are victims world wide because whining people of color are "playing the race card" then you have my sincere sympathy. It must really stink for you to be victimized as such. I can see this has had a devastating effect on advancement of white people in America.

By the way, it's pathetic to have to point this out to you, but the Japanese have not gotten their knickers in a bind. You have mistaken my attempt to let you know how this American feels about another American's use of ignorant language...this isn't about the treatment of enemies of war; it's about how some Americans have treated other Americans.

Listen, use whatever language from whatever viewpoint you please. It's a free country...one that my father defended while his entire American family was behind barbed wired fences back home. Who cares if the words you choose to use may insult, degrade or disrespect other Americans? Honestly, I implore you to speak as you see fit as guaranteed by the first amendment.

But please, get off my back about race card, whining and moving on. I have not been issued any race cards to play, nor am I whining about my position in life and if you haven't noticed, Americans of Asian ancestry by and large have moved on quite well in this country despite people like you. And by the way, it is as much my right to be offended by your ignorant language as it is your right to freely use it in your daily vocabulary.
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Igiro delusionally feels his white supremacy, both social and institutional, is under attack and slipping away. It has been compromised and disenfranchised by dirty brown serfs and their white liberal apologists (set in motion by that tyrant Lincoln in 1863) and is bitter and resentful for it. Paranoid, hypocritical xenophobe.


By the way, one wonders, does he support PNTR, the WTO, NAFTA? The right-wing politicians and corporate owners behind which he falls in jackboot lockstep do. It's good for business, and what's good for business is good for America, right?
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wildschwein



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Mundaring Western Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't weigh into the debate about racism too much here - we can read history in many ways and get what we want from it to support our own opinions. And I'm about to do the same.

I really think Japan paid the ultimate price for it's attack on Pearl Harbour. And that was the concerted fire bomb attacks on many of its cities which was followed by the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in which the US asserted its ultimate revenge. It's no wonder that many cultural productions from Japan - such as Manga films - are still haunted by visions of armageddon. In wars there are no real heroes as both sides have narratives they use to justify what they are doing. The ones who "win" get to keep their stories.
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ingeneri



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by ingeneri on Wed May 19, 2010 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GUITARLAW



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 425
Location: GERMANTOWN,NY

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

igiro, you are a fool not because you are un-educated but because you do not realize how narrow your view of life is.. you judge japan but you are ignorant of the world factors takeing place at that time, if the truth were realized you would see we the western governments forced them into war,and to judge asian peoples now by what happened then is even more foolish.. you always want specific examples to debate, well my view is that for the last eight years the government of the US has become an example of what is bad and represents the worst of mankind..this govenment no longer respects mans God given human rights, this country was formed with the idea of economic and human rights and this government now only cares and represents the economic few and allows them free raine to legally rape and plunder what ever proffit they can take from the weaker. Your white fear of blacks now infact is a fear of all races including poor whites thus we now have homeland security which monotors all our activities and has town by town plans and information should anyone get tired of being denied their human rights and freedoms...fear is the word..I grew-up condeming countrys which torture and who denie freedoms and rights to human beings and now my country has become like those countrys I condemed..you are safe in your country club world but if you could be in the place where most people in this country are you would realize how far this government is from justise and respect for human rights..your jap comment is the perfect example of our governments beliefs.it is no wonder why most of the worlds people no longer respect us. but the good news is even though you are a fool about life you still are not all bad because you do seem to love music.... Michael
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patrik



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 122
Location: sweden

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I will be willing to bet that Igiro is one heck of a guitar player, though


yes, im sure. cant see how he finds the time to practice though; 1927 posts! man, that seems almost like a fulltime job being involved in all these discussions and coming up with all those opinions...phew.
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GUITARLAW



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 425
Location: GERMANTOWN,NY

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IGIRO, Tell me does it matter to a mother weather a bullet or a bomb from bin ladin or bush killed her child ??? I think that the people of the world should hold a referendom and outlaw any killing of inocent men women and children,of coarse the govenments will be aginst this as they are the ones killing, but I think anyone who takes the life of another should forfet their own reguardless of race religion or nationality,being a warrior and fighting is a noble calling but murdering inocent humans is not, perhaps we could set aside some place where people like bush and bin ladin and others who want war could fight without causeing harm to the inocent..my family lost a 30 year old boy on 911 and as far as I am concerned bin ladin should be hunted down by the world comunity like a rabid animal would be,and as well I believe the gunman on the street whos bullet kills a child should be as well,so tell me what makes bush any differant, what makes the leader of china or russia any differant ??and human rights are more than just death,humans have the right to family and to food shelter and clothing,and if they have education they can work and create,they can make art or music, they can find cures for diseases,this government has spent more on armys than on art or music,they cry abortion is bad but they kill many thousand children with their bullets and bombs...this government does not believe in human rights,I am married to a women from another country that is our allie but for eight and a half years they have denied her the right to see her children and now they are trying to separate us for 3-5 years so new paper work can be filed.I have met not one person who believes this is right except for those homeland/ immigration people..what if the government came to you and said you could not see your wife or children, I tell you igiro your little bigitries mean nothing when compared to the human suffering this government is causeing in this country and around the world....so does it matter whos bullet or bomb kills your child....Michael
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ingeneri



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by ingeneri on Wed May 19, 2010 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GUITARLAW



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 425
Location: GERMANTOWN,NY

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

igiro, well I patiently waited for one of your insitefull remarks this week, are you like ingeneri who knows what is said on the web is monitored. why is it when anyone brings up the inhumain treatment of humans they are glad to denounce china or some other country but when someone says something about this government everyone turns their backs and are silent..last month the bushes had the joy of seeing their daughter wed,this is one very important moment in a parents life. well my wife has been denied the right to see her children for eight and a half years,she was not allowed to be there when here two daughters each wed, she was not allowed to be there when her grandchildren were born and she has never held them, and she was not allowed to be there when each of her daughters graduated with honors from college and now this government has decided that we are to be separated for 3-5 years if we are lucky. I will not see her smileing face each morning and will not be able to show her some beautiful thing I see.so while you sit in you comphy country club culdasak rubing elbows with other races human beings are experianceing pain and suffering, mothers morn their dead and mamed children and corperations get rich on a war which has lasted longer than ww2 and has cost more than all the wars the US has fought in its history, so igiro no great reply like jap to come back with to show us how wise you are about world history.... mankind can make beautiful music and art and governments can cause endless pain and suffering......Michael
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GUITARLAW



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 425
Location: GERMANTOWN,NY

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SECRET, SURFRIDER made the simple statement that he looks at his ibanez like a guitar he can take out and use anywhere while he tends to keep the more expensive guitars at home ,I found no hidden deep observation in this, most of us tend to keep our better things more protected.. as for political stements and music if you trace the beginnings of blues and then jazz you will find the players useing the lauangue of music to make statements of suffering and loss during that time. the reason that the current music being created today is not in the form and beauty of jazz is because most jazz has lost a realivant message to what is happening today.we as players love the sound and complexity of jazz but where is this being used to cry out aginst the fat cats rapeing our world and killing our children, so does political statements have a relavance in music I say yes, feel the pain and anger and make it a part of the sound...and as far as igiros rant on the law suite models and aginst makers like ibanez his elitest adatude bothers me,goreki our fearless leader uses a photo of a nice looking ibanez on his myspace,and some of us here use less expensive guitars when we are out of our homes, and as far as igiros constant degreading of other ethnic groups I find it offensive and when I offer a real obsevation on this countrys crimes aginst humanity he ignores it. and the guitars I own made in japan are far seperior in guality to the number of gibsons I own....Michael
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Wildfield



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 406

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: The Toyota of the Guitar World Reply with quote

Secret2goodtoneispractice wrote:
surfrider wrote:
. . . If Gibson is the Ford of American Guitars, I would look at Ibanez as Toyota. Next step is perhaps they may make custom carved archtops. Anyway, Ibanez is doing great work. . .

I find three attributes of this post fascinating.

First, some parallels. Toyota and Ibanez are Japanese-based companies that likely blazed a path of excellence using principles of US citizen and engineer W. Edwards Deming. Deming was sent to Japan after WWII to help rebuild the desolated country. The Japanese embraced Demings principles to become leaders in quality and value. Regardless of their current points of production (China, US, etc) both companies thrive on quality and customer satisfaction fostered by Deming.

Second, to me that the biggest potential for controversy lies in comparing Gibson to Ford. Ford has been in a downward trend, absolutely struggling to survive. They have been unable to design, engineer, and manufacture products fast enough to meet market trends and demand. Is this Gibson as well? What is Gibson's recent innovation? The robot guitar? Who asked for this?

Third, Ibanez recently crafted a limited-edition carved top guitar. It was released in year 2000 as a special George Benson model (aka GBY2K). Surely, if Ibanez could make quality archtops that were affordable, they would. That they don't is no slight against them. Applaud their restraint in this world spanning Eastmans to Benedetto. It's a tough market to achieve quality and profitability.

Finally, the thread seems to have deteriorated into nationality slander and denigration, with some thoughtful response. What is this about? Much ado about hate and ignorance . . . little about playing jazz guitar. Spew the hate from the bandstand and find yourself in the garbage pile in the alley.

On the other hand take a look at Deming for an amazing look at quality principles. Start at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming for an easy point of entry. Pursue according to interest. Do any of his principles apply to music and musicianship? Now there's a topic for a thread, dissertation, etc!


Excellent post! Pertinent to the original discussion and insightful. Thanks for bringing us back to the topic at hand.
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mr. beaumont



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 909
Location: chicago

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a lot of threads here lately are descending into off topic political garbage. it's why i haven't been around as much.

let's focus on jazz guitar playin', huh? there aren't many places on the 'net to do that.
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GUITARLAW



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 425
Location: GERMANTOWN,NY

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INGENERI, you are a far wiser man than I am and you seem to be able to share information in a non emotional way which produces better results than my emotional based comments. thank you Michael
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Phrygian Dominant



Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 583
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I just hope that Americans are finally waking up, because here we go again! Get Ready! We are going to have The neoconservative right wing throwing they're TWO WORD slogans at Obama. They always do that because they know they cannot win strictly on the issues so they cloud the debate with TWO WORD slogans to scare uneducated people from voting for a Democrat. LISTEN carefully you'll hear them again. Just to remind you.."bleeding heart, tax & spend, class warfare", etc etc. MEANINGLESS trite two word slogans designed to scare and confuse people especially the uneducated voter's who don't have the patience or wherewithal to do the research and discover the facts. That's another reason why the neo-con's want t o keep us in perpetual war. You see they really believe that war is one of the few issues that they can really win on. PEOPLE WAKE UP!!!

Obama wants to LOWER taxes on 95% of the US taxpayer's. He wants to give you an extra $1,000 tax break unless you make over $200,000+/year. I'm pretty sure that includes the vast majority of us here (well except maybe Igiro) Laughing . But believe me that you will still hear the lie coming from McCain and his cohorts that Obama wants to raise your taxes. Just listen and learn! It's always a fear campaign with them.

Thankfully many people (especially the youth of America) are finally waking up. They are realizing the TRUTH that it has been Republican Administration's that have really brought us the worst economies during the 20th and now the 21'st centuries. Several Republican Administration's in a row led us into the Great Depression. It took a Democratic President to get us back on track (and the neo-con's have still never forgiven him for that). JFK's victory was due to, in a big way, the stagnant economy Republicans before him had brought us. The economy began to rebound with his TAX CUTS (NO, neo-con's didn't invent them) and other economic policies. Enter Richard Nixon who single handedly brought us the worst US economy since the GREAT DEPRESSION. TRUTH! Stagflation, Gas shortages and rationing, high interest rates, huge budget deficits (the FIRST ones in the twentieth century)!!!!! Taking the US off of the Gold Standard without even consulting the Fed or the financial markets. No, Carter did not fix the huge economic problems he inherited from Nixon/Ford largely because he had a terrible relationship with congress both Republicans AND Democrat's. So consequently he could not get much done.

Republican policies = fascist policies. Yes they are Fascist's! Now before you blow up on me fascism just means: A weak central government (what they call in code "small government") and large corporations essentially controlling government policies. You see "they", neo-con's" think that government should be a wholly owned subsidiary of large corporation's. Wake up people!

Now how much longer are we going to let Conservatives insist on giving subsidies and huge tax breaks to large corporation's that then turn around and "spit on us" by sending they're jobs overseas before we wake up? How long are we going to let huge Republican deficit's balloon out of sight AGAIN and let the banking industry and speculator's rip us off again before we wake up? They have done it to us time and time again, under Republican Administrations, so when are we going to wake up? Sure corporation's will whine about it but we need some regulation to control this little thing called GREED from running rampant. You can go all the way back to the industrial revolution and the depression to see examples. You see the Democrats have learned this little lesson but Republicans still refuse to learn from history. We just need some regulation's to keep GREED from perverting the system - geez it's so plain. Learn from history America!

Those who do not learn from they're history are doomed to repeat it!
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Last edited by Phrygian Dominant on Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:39 am; edited 2 times in total
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