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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a military tactician, and neither are you. The point was a generic one meant to contrast the proposal of a relatively small-scale, deliberate, intelligent "police" operation (which may or may not have involved Special Forces at all, but perhaps intelligence operatives or Interpol or the like, depending on what was required) as opposed to a full-scale "bazooka for a hammer" military invasion. That should have been rather obvious, I would think.

I'm only responding in order to clarify my own words. The answers to the rest of your rhetorical questions are quite readily and easily available to anyone who cares to do a little rudimentary research. I wonder (rhetorically) whether you even read any newspapers, even so much as AP, AFP, or Reuters newswires, or only listen to Rush, watch FAUX News, and maybe read a right-wing rag like the National Review online now and then. Whatever. It's something like when creationists ask for the evidence for evolution. It's all there, free and clear, in abundance, and it's quite possible you damned well know it. Or perhaps you're genuinely ignorant. Either way, I'm tired of repeating it.

Additionally, to the overthrow of the (previous) Taliban government, I do not believe that you or your ilk are the least bit prepared, by logical extension, for the US government to use its military to overthrow every foul government in this world, despite the overt imperial ambitions of the "neocon" sect.

Finally, the suggestion that Afghans are now "allowed to live with dignity and freedom. Freedom from misogynist [sic] - but more importantly - brutal sharia law" is simply, utterly, empirically false. Anyone with a scant awareness or knowledge of the situation in that country, especially outside Kabul (but even within), would either laugh or cry that some oblivious fool would so smugly claim such a lie.

But what else is new? You know jack shit, only rightist propaganda. And you can't even keep that straight, given that even a great number of serious Republicans, and conservatives in general, will no longer buy or sell the sort of political flimflam you continue to attempt to promulgate. Get a clue; you're joining the ranks of the flat-earthers.

Now I need to take my own advice and be done with you.
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DocDosco



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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Location: LA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
DocDosco wrote:
Igiro,

I will debate any of this stuff with you (or anyone else) if you keep an open mind. If you have your mind made up already, resort to derision or simply spout the official platitudes.... and are not open to looking at ALL of the evidence to make an informed descion, then it is pointless.



Doc - time out please. you have not presented evidence brother. you have presented charges. according to our legal system if charges have no merit, the charges are dropped.

can you pick just one of the articles and provide unimpeachable evidence? i have an open mind, but i also know partisan politics and their motivations. Kucinich ran and failed. he is very liberal, like Obama. much more so than Hillary. this is an election year. can you imagine what will hapenn to McCain's chances if Bush is being impeached during the summer? even if it fails, the damage will be done.

if we like conspiracy theories, is this scenario a stretch?

anyway, back to the articles - evidence please? lets take the one about tampering with the voting act.







The reason Bush isn't impeached is largely a Democratic decision. They want him and his incredibly low approval rate to run against. Regardless of his crimes, they think impeaching him now would cause a fight they don't have the stomach for, and would actually lessen their chances of victory in Nov.

There is a ton of reading. All I posted before were the titles. Here are the actual charges. All I can present are the charges. Proof comes out in the evidence and testimony ....and legal guilt (or innocence) are determined in court. These charges though, do go in depth on all the points of impeachment... the high crimes and misdemeanors of the president.

After this, it is up to congress and the courts ....

http://www.progressive.org/mag_wx0601008


Now, to educate you, my son: ;0)

The vote snatching worked in 2000 and 2004. In 2006, even though they scrubbed voter rolls of democrats, and used every other trick in the book, the repubs couldn't overcome the overwhelming turnout for dems. The dems should have won by a massive landslide margin, but they didn't.


HOW THEY STOLE THE MID-TERM ELECTION

by Greg Palast
for The Guardian (UK), Comment
Monday November 6, 2006

Here's how the 2006 mid-term election was stolen.

Note the past tense. And I'm not kidding.

And shoot me for saying this, but it won't be stolen by jerking with the touch-screen machines (though they'll do their nasty part). While progressives panic over the viral spread of suspect computer black boxes, the Karl Rove-bots have been tunneling into the vote vaults through entirely different means.

For six years now, our investigations team, at first on assignment for BBC TV and the Guardian, has been digging into the nitty-gritty of the gaming of US elections. We've found that November 7, 2006 is a day that will live in infamy. Four and a half million votes have been shoplifted. Here's how they'll do it, in three easy steps:

Theft #1: Registrations gone with the wind.

On January 1, 2006, while America slept off New Year's Eve hangovers, a new federal law crept out of the swamps that has devoured 1.9 million votes, overwhelmingly those of African-Americans and Hispanics. The vote-snatching statute is a cankerous codicil slipped into the 2002 Help America Vote Act -- strategically timed to go into effect in this mid-term year. It requires every state to reject new would-be voters whose identity can't be verified against a state verification database.

Sounds arcane and not too threatening. But look at the numbers and you won't feel so fine. About 24.3 million Americans attempt to register or re-register each year. The New York University Law School's Brennan Center told me that, under the new law, Republican Secretaries of State began the year by blocking about one in three new voters.

How? To begin with, Mr. Bush's Social Security Administration has failed to verify 47% of registrants. After appeals and new attempts to register, US Elections Assistance Agency statistics indicate 1.9 million would-be voters will still find themselves barred from the ballot on Tuesday.

But don't worry: those holding passports from their ski vacations to Switzerland are doing just fine. And that's the point. It's not the number of voters rejected, itās their color. For example, California's Republican Secretary of State Bruce McPherson figured out how to block 40% of registrants, mostly Hispanics. In a rare counter-move, Los Angeles, with a Hispanic mayor, contacted these citizens, "verified" them and got almost every single one back on the rolls. But throughout the rest of the West, new Hispanics remain victims of the "Josť Crow" treatment.

In hotly contested Ohio, Kenneth Blackwell, Secretary of State and the Republican's candidate for Governor, remains voter-rejection champ -- partly by keeping the rejection criteria a complete secret.

Theft #2: Turned Away - the ID game

A legion of pimple-faced Republicans with Blackberries loaded with lists of new voters is assigned to challenge citizens in heavily Black and Hispanic(i.e. Democratic) precincts to demand photo ID that perfectly matches registration data.

Sounds benign, but it's not. The federal HAVA law and complex new ID requirements in states like New Mexico will easily allow the GOP squads to triple the number of voters turned away. Rather than deny using these voter suppression tactics, Republican spokesmen are claiming they are "protecting the integrity of the vote."

I've heard that before. In 2004, we got our hands on fifty confidential internal memos from the files of the Republican National Committee. Attached to these were some pretty strange spreadsheets. They called them "caging lists" -- and it wasn't about zoo feeding times. They were lists (70,000 for Florida alone) of new Black and Jewish voters -- a very Democratic demographic -- to challenge on Election Day. The GOP did so with a vengeance: In 2004, for the first time in half a century, more than 3.5 million voters were challenged on Election Day. Worse, nearly half lost their vote: 300,000 were turned away for wrong ID; 1.1 million were allowed a "provisional" ballot -- which was then simply tossed out.

Tomorrow, new federal ID requirements and a dozen new state show-me-your-ID laws will permit the GOP challenge campaign to triple their 300,000 record to nearly one million voters blocked.

Theft #3: Votes Spoiled Rotten

The nasty little secret of US elections is that three million ballots are cast in national elections but not counted -- 3,600,380 not counted in 2004 according to US Election Commission stats. These are votes lost because a punch card didn't punch (its chad got "hung"), a stray mark voided a paper ballot and other machinery glitches.

Officials call it "spoilage." I call it, "inaugurating Republicans." Why? According to statisticians working with the US Civil Rights Commission, the chance your vote will "spoil" this way is 900% higher for Black folk and 500% higher for Hispanics than for white voters. When we do the arithmetic, we find that well over half of all votes spoiled or "blank" are cast by voters of color. On balance, this spoilage game produces a million-vote edge for the GOP.

That's where the Black Boxes come into play. Forget about Karl Rove messing with the software to change your vote. Rather, the big losses occur when computers crash, fail to start or simply don't respond to your touch. They are the new spoilage machines of choice with, statistically, the same racial bias as the old vote-snatching lever machines. (Funny, but paper ballots with in-precinct scanners don't go rotten on Black voters. Maybe that's why Republican Secretaries of State have installed so few of them.)

So Let's Add it Up

Two million legitimate voters will be turned away because of wrongly rejected or purged registrations.

Add another one million voters challenged and turned away for "improper ID."

Then add yet another million for Democratic votes "spoiled" by busted black boxes and by bad ballots.

And let's not forget to include the one million "provisional" ballots which will never get counted. Based on the experience of 2004, we know that, overwhelmingly, minority voters are the ones shunted to these baloney ballots.

And there's one more group of votes that won't be counted: absentee ballots challenged and discarded. Elections Assistance Agency data tell us a half million of these absentee votes will go down the drain.

Driving this massive suppression of the vote are sophisticated challenge operations. And here I must note that the Democrats have no national challenge campaign. That's morally laudable; electorally suicidal.

Add it all up -- all those Democratic-leaning votes rejected, barred and spoiled -- and the Republican Party begins Election Day with a 4.5 million-vote thumb on the vote-tally scale.

So, what are you going to do about it? May I suggest you ∑ steal back your vote.

It's true you can't win with 51% of the vote anymore. So just get over it. The regime's sneak attack via vote suppression will only net them 4.5 million votes, about 5% of the total. You should be able to beat that blindfolded. If you can't get 55%, then you're just a bunch of crybaby pussycats who don't deserve to win back America.

********
Greg Palast is the author of the New York Times bestseller, "ARMED MADHOUSE."
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DocDosco



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
ok, fair enough.

but im not buying it. i think its sour grapes.


You don't have to buy anything. All I am presenting are the facts.

You can acknowledge them or dismiss them. Many people in America have a bad had habit of living in denial and overlooking the facts though, I find....

;0)
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DocDosco



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
DocDosco wrote:
lgiro wrote:
ok, fair enough.

but im not buying it. i think its sour grapes.


You don't have to buy anything. All I am presenting are the facts.

You can acknowledge them or dismiss them. Many people in America have a bad had habit of living in denial and overlooking the facts though, I find....

;0)


no sir.

you have presented an article with some facts, coupled with a large amount of opinionated editorializing. the editorializing is favorable to your point of view. i do the same thing on occasion.

now that, is a fact.

im on to other things this weekend, thanks for the debate. enjoy SoCal today.


I grant you there are sarcastic comments mixed in with the investigative reporting, but it is still largely factual, IMO. How you interpret this kind of reporting certainly differs and his claims can be disputed. Any claims involving the 'truth' can be disputed.

However, it is interesting stuff.

Thanks. Have a nice weekend.
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sunflower



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 581

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Doc on 911 I'm afraid

Here's the Science ......

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Completely
Collapse?
By Dr. Steven E. Jones
Physicist and Archaeometrist
http://wtc7.net/articles/WhyIndeed09.pdf

Its a hair-raising read .......
PLEASE READ IT GUYS

It has the answers to your various questions Ingro
will you bother to read it ?
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DocDosco



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunflower wrote:
I'm with Doc on 911 I'm afraid

Here's the Science ......

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Completely
Collapse?
By Dr. Steven E. Jones
Physicist and Archaeometrist
http://wtc7.net/articles/WhyIndeed09.pdf

Its a hair-raising read .......
PLEASE READ IT GUYS

It has the answers to your various questions Ingro
will you bother to read it ?


Glad someone else here sees the light, so to speak....

The problem is that the diehard 911 skeptics/debunkers have already made up their minds. (and many have a vested interest in their agenda) They will not look at this evidence impartially. It's akin to a religion. They treat a set of postulations as indelible fact and then defend their beliefs against any contradicting views as if those views were heresy.

It's like several branches of science that have developed certain ideas they believe are cold hard facts, and they become scared cows... untouchable... and no amount of evidence to the contrary is recognized or even tolerated. The anomalies and challenges to the status quo are simply dismissed and/or ignored completely. Egyptology is like that.


;0)
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I've gotten from this is that italics make normal words into serious business words.
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flat-earther wrote:
you are beyond rude.

Pot...kettle. I've directed jabs at you individually. Since I've joined this forum I've witnessed you directing invective and smart-assed rhetoric at several people, nearly anyone who doesn't conform with your views. O'Reilly bully/victim pathology, much?

I suppose you could appeal to Gorecki seeming to share some of your political beliefsóI won't presume him to be that petty, and would logically require also banning about a dozen others who've expressed political views you would like quashed. "Know your place, shut your face," is the message, I suppose.

Have you moved beyond obsessing on Kucinich yet, and checked out those names I mentioned: Bruce Fein, Jonathan Turley, Charles Fried, Fritz Schwarz, among others? I wouldn't think so. Credible conservatives who also deem this Administration as criminal would distract from and destroy your straw man.
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the record, I'm not booting anyone, especially over all of this horse shit.

You all can go ahead and keep on pissin in each others Corn Flakes. Really don't care, Just keep me out of it. Unlike some of you, I don't have time for this crap.

Oh, and while I'm at it. If I find another mass deviation from a topic like what started this one, I'll just start suspending accounts.
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Wildfield



Joined: 28 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorecki wrote:
Just for the record, I'm not booting anyone, especially over all of this horse shit.

You all can go ahead and keep on pissin in each others Corn Flakes. Really don't care, Just keep me out of it. Unlike some of you, I don't have time for this crap.

Oh, and while I'm at it. If I find another mass deviation from a topic like what started this one, I'll just start suspending accounts.


Gorecki,

You can start by suspending my account...since I guess I am the one who started this "horse shit."

Igiro is a bigot and a racist...which I can accept. I started this "horse shit" because he used a term that I took umbrage with. A sort of heads up tip for Igiro that he was using ignorant, insulting language. He chose to ignore the heads up. He chose to rationalize his bigotry. No problem...this is America. I said my piece; Igiro said his; and the thread sort of veered off on its own...but at the end of the day, it was my heads up to Igiro that started this "horse shit".

I like this place and most folks here are respectful but if a guy uses stupid, ignorant language, why can't another guy point this out? Why would you call that "horse shit"? Do you approve of Igiro's bigotry? Why don't you suspend Igiro's account for being a bigot?

Whatever. As much as I like most of the folks here and as fun as the conversations have been, I don't have to put up with bigots like Igiro and assholes like you.

Horse shit??? **** you!
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DocDosco



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
Doc - these are just as easy to find out there.

http://www.maniacworld.com/9-11-conspiracy-theories-debunked.html


Quite a firestorm brewing. I wrote this bit before the exchanges got heated so I'll post it.


What you have is the account that the world was sold.

It is all well and good, and sounds fine on the surface, however there are just as many noted experts on the other side that say this scenario doesn't fit the all facts, stretches the truth, or is plain wrong. And it really doesn't begin to address the myriad of unanswered questions - the sin of omission is pretty blatant here

I'm sure there are a bunch I am missing, but let's start with these:

why was the basement full of demolition type molten metal that didn't cool for weeks? What about all the eyewitnesses that heard the charges blow and the seismic devices that recorded them?(explosions especially from the underground parking structure) What about all the metal beams neatly sliced in uniform sections and those that were cut diagonally just like a demolition charge would cut them. Why was the metal from the site never tested and why was it rushed off to be sold as scrap to India.

What about the video where you can see the demo charges going off down the side of the towers, and how did it neatly collapse at free fall speed (seemingly impossible unless it was blown) and fall neatly pulverized into it's own footprint .

There are also the statements of the dozens (probably hundreds) of experts (PhDs, physicists, university professors) that say that this the government scenario is incorrect. Many of them are ostracized, ridiculed and shunned for speaking out, however they do anyway.

But even if I conceded that it was possible that the towers pancaked, the explosions that were electronically registered were auditory and seismic hallucinations, all the eyewitnesses where mistaken, the steal beams sliced themselves and 5000 tons of 5000 degree super heated sludge filled the basement out of thin air.... that still leaves Building 7.

Building 7 is the kicker. Explain the collapse of Building 7 to me in some fashion that doesn't sound completely idiotic and doesn't suspend the laws of physics and I'll listen.




And just to add, I am willing be civil and debate what I have learned on 911 as I spent some time sifting through the data at one time until I was satisfied I had found out what actually occurred. These are my opinions, based on a lot of research.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I have no agenda to try and change any one's mind. I had to satisfy myself.

Even though I am acerbic and sarcastic, I don't point my scathing critiques at anyone on this forum. I am willing to be respectful and just have a discussion. This topic isn't about guitars, I know, but 'world events' is an important topic for many of us, as it our world these criminals in power are ruining....

So, children, can we cool off and play nice, pleeeeeze?

;0)
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Wildfield, that was really uncalled for. No one was singling you out other than you. My point was about the context of destroying a threads content quality where no one is being prevented from starting a new topic.

The issue that I have is the laziness of not taking the time to create new topics and making it my problem to clean up the mess. Where I might add is a royal pain, this forums software is very limited in administrative functionality and I have to resort to writing features myself to manage chronic information manipulation issues or literally run queries and updates directly against the databases to correct more occasional issues. All involving skills I have and use where in most situations I get paid. If you had any idea of the amount of man hours Iíve burned keeping this place scum free and running smoothly I think you would be a little more empathetic to my frustrations. This place is constantly bombarded with spammer accounts and hack attempts and it takes all I have to keep that stuff from affecting the forum let alone having to manage those already within.

So, by all means continue to use the forum, despite of your short sighted reaction. My commitment to keeping these forums alive for the scope they offer has nothing to do with or affected by my ego.

Finally (I hope) I found lgiro deactivated suggesting some one attempted to access and/or lockout his user account. I reactivated it and hope I wonít have to go through the effort of researching the culprits IP address and banning it.

lgiro, itís fairly clear your means of responding with confrontation and sarcasms are not being taken well. Please attempt to be mindful of fact the written word can be largely misinterpreted and putting people in the place of having to defend or prove isnít particularly effective. As Iím certain you know, communication is an art and if the means of communication are ineffective, compensation and adjustment is necessary, otherwise itís nothing more than confrontation for the sake of confrontation.

Happy Fathers Day to all of us it applies too.
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GUITARLAW



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorecki, happy fathers day, thank you for the work you do here so we can enjoy the freedom to talk with players from around the world,it never ceases to amaze me what a gift it is to be able to share so much info here, when I was young I was lucky to have one poor book which turned out to teach poorly and it took years to unlearn those bad habits, but here because of your work we can learn from some great players...thank you.......... as to igiro he is very gernerous with his musical knowledge, my late wife was from japan and she was one of the greatest human beings I have ever met and I should not of taken igiros comment so personally.....thanks.............Michael
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sunflower



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
OK, I read it. interesting & fun questions raised. no real answers. i'm not on board with the notion of a conspiracy though.

what would be really interesting is to take a walk down that road a little further, and explain how a demolition crew would have done each step of the job on 3? huge buildings in 24X7 Manhattan without being observed/caught by the police and security. the CIA was in one of those buildings. can just anybody walk around in their offices willy nilly? i would like to see the conspiracy theory simulation of the job from start to final execution.

just my opinion but - implausible. i would say absurd, actually.

Oswald alone.
OBL and KSM alone.

i'm off for pizza and champagne. maybe i'll watch 3 days of the condor tonight.


Big thanks for reading it man ......
I feel that it's not necessary to imagine ways in which it could be done
It is necessary to have a proper investigation into 911 including Building 7
Wouldn't all you Americans want that ?
you guys spent more on investigating Clinton's sex drive ... literally
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sunflower



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Glad someone else here sees the light, so to speak....

The problem is that the diehard 911 skeptics/debunkers have already made up their minds. (and many have a vested interest in their agenda) They will not look at this evidence impartially.


Keep going tho man ..... the science is the way forward
I was very skeptical myself when I was presented
with these unanswered questions
But eventually I was convinced that we don't have the truth ....

I takes a while because it's massive paradigm shift
at first these ideas of ours do seem preposterous

but then theres the molten iron

power to you doc
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