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Phrygian Dominant



Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 583
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Hate to say I told you so but... Reply with quote

I originally posted this on this forum back in June, '08:

Thankfully many people (especially the youth of America) are finally waking up. They are realizing the TRUTH that it has been Republican Administration's that have really brought us the worst economies during the 20th and now the 21'st centuries. Several Republican Administration's in a row led us into the Great Depression. It took a Democratic President to get us back on track (and the neo-con's have still never forgiven him for that). JFK's victory was due to, in a big way, the stagnant economy Republicans before him had brought us. The economy began to rebound with his TAX CUTS (NO, neo-con's didn't invent them) and other economic policies. Enter Richard Nixon who single handedly brought us the worst US economy since the GREAT DEPRESSION. TRUTH! Stagflation, Gas shortages and rationing, high interest rates, huge budget deficits (the FIRST ones in the twentieth century)!!!!! Taking the US off of the Gold Standard without even consulting the Fed or the financial markets. No, Carter did not fix the huge economic problems he inherited from Nixon/Ford largely because he had a terrible relationship with congress both Republicans AND Democrat's. So consequently he could not get much done.

Republican policies = fascist policies. Yes they are Fascist's! Now before you blow up on me fascism just means: A weak central government (what they call in code "small government") and large corporations essentially controlling government policies. You see "they", neo-con's" think that government should be a wholly owned subsidiary of large corporation's. Wake up people!

Now how much longer are we going to let Conservatives insist on giving subsidies and huge tax breaks to large corporation's that then turn around and "spit on us" by sending they're jobs overseas before we wake up? How long are we going to let huge Republican deficit's balloon out of sight AGAIN and let the banking industry and speculator's rip us off again before we wake up? They have done it to us time and time again, under Republican Administrations, so when are we going to wake up? Sure corporation's will whine about it but we need some regulation to control this little thing called GREED from running rampant. You can go all the way back to the industrial revolution and the depression to see examples. You see the Democrats have learned this little lesson but Republicans still refuse to learn from history. We just need some regulation's to keep GREED from perverting the system - geez it's so plain. Learn from history America!

Those who do not learn from they're history are doomed to repeat it!


Here's a link to the original post if you don't believe me: http://www.playjazzguitar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=36735&highlight=#36735

HERE IS WHAT I"VE ADDED TODAY:
So here we are in September '08 and now I hear economist after economic expert on the news INCLUDING REPUBLICAN economist's saying that today "we are facing the biggest systemic failure of the U.S. economy SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION". This failure is a direct result of republican economic policies like deregulation and "trickle down"/supply side economics. Finally they conservatives are forced to admit that their economic policies are an utter failure. So here we are on the verge of another DEPRESSION unless drastic measures are taken to bail out the economy that will cost tax payers hundreds of billions of dollars up to a trillion is what they are saying. How's that for a tax increase?

I could go on about how this is all more sinister than you really think but I won't today. I just hope that FINALLY more people will WAKE UP and realize that an economic policy based upon "letting the foxes guard the hen house" is foolish. Also the republican view that if we just make the rich richer that all of the benefits will just magically "trickle down" to everybody else is just as foolish. Seems that throughout history all that happens in that case is that the middle class and the poor get pissed on. Maybe that's what they mean by trickle down?

Yeah and Viva Obama!
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might be well served to actually analyse—and simply read up on—the pro-corporate, pro-Wall Street, anti-labour economic policies, the widespread deregulation/liberalisation, corporate welfare (i.e., subsidies), anarcho-capitalist and totalitarian-corporatist trade "agreements," enthusiastically advanced, passed, and boasted about by Clinton, Rubin et al and Congressional Democrats before singing their undeserved praises. You are totally deluded and uninformed in attributing intellect, nobility and non-complicity to the Democrats. You and many of their followers have a profound albeit inherently irrational Faith in the Party as well as Obama. Faith: The strong belief in something in spite of, sometimes because of, a lack of evidence.

I don't think you know the differences between a Conservative and a so-called Neo-Conservative, either.

Yeah, somebody needs to wake up, alright.
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Phrygian Dominant



Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's right G.S. keep drinking that conservative kool aid, keep watching faux news, keep believing their lies when they tell you "the fundamentals of the economy are strong". Hmmm seems to me they were teling that lie right up until the day before they were forced to admit their utter failure.

That's right GS keep sleeping.
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Generic Sobriquet



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fool, I'm a leftist. Check out my other politically-realted comments on this forum. Typical.
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Phrygian Dominant



Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee that wasn't very nice.

It's not about blind faith in the democrats either. However I do believe that if say a guy named Al Gore would have won in 2000 & 2004 and say the dems had the same majority in congress that the repubs had from before 1996 to 2007 we would NOT be talking about this economic catastrophe today. For one thing if the dems had been in control all of that time they NEVER would have allowed the evisceration of all the regulations that were there to keep wall street and speculators from running a muck like they did. We would be talking about balanced budgets and maybe even surpluses that could be going back into the middle class taxpayers pockets in rebates or what have you.

And yes I believe that Obama is a much better candidate than McCain; much better. Trust me I'm not living in a dream world about it either. I mean now Obama is going to be dealt such a terrible hand to work with it's really going to be difficult.
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voodobop



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

loL "conservative coolaide" Razz wtf

p.d, i think you really need to invest some time into developing your own ideas. Key topics to think about: democrat or republican, who ever is elected will continue down the socialist corporate welfare trail, im not trying to be like milton freedman but it obvious that this behavior is in the long-run, along with the federal reserve system a contributing factor to the economic situation. Also, we spend too much money on diplomacy, being the world police war mongering and contributing to terrorism (ie, noam chomsky arguement). These canidates are just saying what they need to in order to be elected, you are being duped.

That being said, a trace of socialism can be good, first thing that comes to mind is the fact that we dont have condos in yellowstone park, but another country has let a macdonalds be constructed on the road out to stone henge. Also, for obvious reasons it is helpful for infrastructure also.

Whats bad and is the downfall of our economy is socialist economy strategies. I dont mind tax money being spent on science, school ect and maybe a trace on appropriately thought out philanthropy and welfare. But when its used to bail out large corporations its a differen't story. Big business is in bed with the government.

You are contributing to the problem, you've bought into the rationale that the real argument is "whats better democrat or republican", simply choosing the apporiate one will bring about the desired result, which is completely untrue and unproductive. This discourages the influx of innovative ideas, just as religion does. Dont just look backwards for answers.

That being said i think you have the right energy.
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Nyx



Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Hate to say I told you so but... Reply with quote

Another theory is that both democrat and republican politicians have a very high time preference - i.e. they operate on the very short time frame of one election period - and that because they need to be reelected, and because they need to create the impression of good times and a boom, they often fall into the fall into temptations og expansionist money and credit politice.

But since money is the yardstick that every economic calculation and every estimate are measured with, and because expansionist monetary policy (inflation) in real terms, is counterfeiting the money, by increasing the money supply or expanding the credit, people will miscalculate. Expansionist money and credit policies will deceive the public. People will continue to do their calculations just as they have always done, an in ways that has worked for them before. But when politicians fall into temptations and starts manipulating with the value of money, peoples calculations will deceive them into believing that they can service a bigger loan than they actually are able to.

So it's not that people all of a sudden gets economically stupid, irresponsible and frivolous. It's not that individuals or businesses all of a sudden starts to overinvest, and it's not the greed of egotist capitalists - people, businesses and capitalist - are just the scape goats that it is necessary for politicians to use to get away with it, when the busts set in.
It is a problem not only with democrat and republicans, but of all politicians. Sooner or later they will fall into the trap of trying to crate the false impression of a boom by manipulate with your money and credit.

Either because they need the money, but don't want to be unpopular and increase taxes, or because they want to create the impression of a boom to win the next election.

The problem is that the devastating and catastrophic consequences of expansionist money and credit policies are delayed by several years.
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Phrygian Dominant



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Hate to say I told you so but... Reply with quote

Nyx wrote:
The problem is that the devastating and catastrophic consequences of expansionist money and credit policies are delayed by several years.


Nyx wrote:

The problem is that the devastating and catastrophic consequences of expansionist money and credit policies are delayed by several years.


Well that much of what you said I can agree with but the first thing I would say to you and a lot of others who post here is really, stop blaming the government blame yourselves. I mean if I and so many of us progressive democrats could see this coming for so long why couldn't you?. You are the one's who keep voting these idiot's into office. You are the one's who allowed those right wing ideologues to SELL you down this road we are on now; the road to economic crash and depression. There are NO liberal republicans in congress anymore because YOU the American voters' drank the right wing kool-Aid and purged them all. In the House 40 of the "so called" democrat's there are conservative democrats because YOU put them there and then you complain that there is not much difference between the parties. In fact most of the REAL progressive democrat's have been voted out by YOU so there are now very few really progressive democrat's in the congress. Then you guys get on forums or whatever and have the nerve to complain that there is not enough difference between the parties.

The conservatives repeated almost verbatim all of the same mistakes that led to the great depression of the 1930's and the banking crisis of the 1980's. If you allow them to stay in power they will still continue down the same path because that is their ideology, those are their "values".

I'm not going to go on too long here because I want people to read all of this but let me stress these last few points:

Please please please stop drinking the Kool-Aid, yes the republicans are good salesman, they keep their message simple like one and two word slogans like raise taxes or socialism, and people fall for it. The progressives want you to actually THINK so their message is not so simple; a harder sell even if it is right.

1) NOW GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEADS: FDR or his "socialist" policies did NOT cause the great depression. The TRUTH is that he saved this country from it and turned us onto an economic path that led us to the booming middle class of the 50's and 60's. THEN Nixon and conservatives came to power in the 70's and it started to fall a part because they started to dismantle it. After the crook was impeached Reagan took over in the 80's and finished the job. NOW 30 STRAIGHT YEARS OF CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN RULE has led us to the verge of another great depression. Now hold them accountable like they always preach!

2) Sure Govt spending had gotten out of control by the 70's to 80's but DON"T BELIEVE THE LIE that it was all democrats fault that happened, you see that's the big lie where they make a fool of you. Also don't forget that during the 70's we were still paying for the vietnam war and some people in congress think you actually have to PAY for a war not just put off the cost onto future generations.

3)The spirit of Roosevelt in the form of the FDIC is the only thing that's saved us from being in a depression today. People feel like their deposits are safe so we are NOT having a run on banks like in 1929 even though huge banks are failing left and right.

The good news is that we can get out of this and with smart decisions and a change in government even avoid a depression, BUT...

The only way to really fix this economy is from the bottom up like FDR did NOT from the top down like the conservatives try and try to do with NO record of success. That means: raising wages (the [b]minimum
wage in this country should be up around $12/hr by now) since you cannot really support yourself on anything less without Govt assistance. Heck you guys who say you don't like social programs should be in favor of that and if a business can't survive paying people a living wage then they can't afford to be in business it's just that simple. In short you have to raise wages and create jobs from the bottom up and create a booming middle class like progressive democrats want to do. You must also STOP the right wing ideology of the destruction of the middle class started in the 1970's and stop deregulation and stop letting the greedy corporations write all of the rules. You will NOT get out of this by continuing the supply side "trickle down economics".

The sad thing is that YOU have allowed the right wing to do so much damage that this whole thing may get much worse before progressive thinkers (all of which are found in the democratic party now) can dig us back out.

In short if you really want this country to boom again you have to put money in the hands of the middle class and the poor, not by the means of Govt programs or a ,measily tax rebate, but by the means of JOBS THAT PAY MORE SO THAT THEY HAVE DISPOSABLE INCOME TO SPEND AND SUPPORT BUSINESS AND THE ECONOMY. YOUV'E GOT TO SUPPORT LABOR THE WAY FDR DID NOT JUST THROW MORE TAX BREAKS AND SUBSIDIES TO BIG CORPORATIONS THAT THE FEW GUYS AT THE VERY TOP WILL GOBBLE UP. It's just that simple.
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Generic Sobriquet



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You guys...YOU!" Who the f**k are you talking to—or, I should say, screaming at?
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Phrygian Dominant



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generic Sobriquet wrote:
"You guys...YOU!" Who the f**k are you talking to—or, I should say, screaming at?


Who am I talking to? The herd that's who.

The cavemen are running behind the herd again screaming and waving their arms trying to scare the herd into making a bad decision again. The herd is mind controlled through fear and starts running where the conservative cavemen want them to go. Too bad they don't notice the cliff the conservative cavemen are tricking them over until it's too late. I'm the guy off to the side of the herd yelling at the top of my voice' "turn around, it's a trick, don't let them control your minds through fear, you're being stampeded right off a cliff." The herd just looks back at me and sneers, what's wrong with that guy, how come he's not stampeding with us? Yes, some of the herd even have the gall to hurl verbal insults at me just before I watch them plunge headlong over the edge of a sheer cliff; it's a long way down.

Still every time it happens I'm always there screaming at the herd to turn around and not be controlled by fear again. Still, most of the herd is too consumed by fear to think clearly so most of them end up running over the edge of the cliff. Still I always stand there yelling at them and pointing the other way because even if just a few wake up then maybe next time even more of the herd will be saved. it's a lonely job at times but I don't care, somebody has got tot do it.

Geez, do you realize how much money has just been stolen from you? How come nobody is going to jail or being charged with a crime by the Bush Administration? That's right I said stolen because that's what just happened dudes. Hopefully enough of us vote for change in November and then you'll see some Bush administration corruption uncovered that will even boggle the most jaded minds, if you pay attention that is. Somehow it could be that most people still won't get it.
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surfrider



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"We have met the enemy and he is us."- Walt Kelly

By the way, has anyone read anything by Andrew Bacevich?
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PD, so, were you referring to me? Do you still baselessly and fallaciously believe I must be a right-wing "kool-aid drinker" simply because I don't fall in line with your Party, deluded faith in them, and parroted talking points?

You claim you called this meltdown back in June. Myself and others predicted this 10 years ago (and I can prove it). What were you doing and thinking over that period? The Democrats?

Then your inane solution: we should mindlessly and unquestioningly hand over our votes to your church—I mean, Party—and its saviours, especially Messiah Obama (because, after all, we do now have an Imperial Presidency and you, most people, seem to be fine with that). Unapoligetically I say that no one is entitled to my vote, with particular disdain for those who believe they are.

By contrast, I would like to share with you the 10-point plan that I support for this financial crisis and have advocated for years. Tell me whether any of this sounds rightist/conservative to you, as well as who in your Party has proposed such legislation. Oh wait, too late. Your damn fool, timid, spineless, brain-dead, corporate-owned, sell-out, back-stabbing, sans principles Democrats already blew it and caved and abdicated to the GOP, WallStreet and Corporate America—again.

Nevertheless:

Quote:
Immediate Changes Required for Any Bailout

- No bailouts without conditions and reciprocity in the form of stock warrants

- No more lobbying for any company that is bailed out

- No golden parachutes and get out of jail free cards for guilty executives

- No bailouts without public hearings

Changes to Housing Market

- Reduce the moral hazard in U.S. mortgage markets by introducing covered bonds for the majority of mortgage products as they do in Western Europe. That gives institutions that finance mortgages an incentive to be prudent, because they cannot just unload them and wipe their hands clean of the liability, but are instead on the hook if the homeowner defaults.

- Maintain neighborhood stability and housing security by passing a law with a sunset clause allowing below median-value homeowners facing foreclosure the right to rent-to-own their homes at fair market value rates.

- Avoid future housing bubbles by removing implicit government guarantees for new mortgages that exceed thresholds of greater than 15-20 times the annual fair market rent value of the home.

Structural Changes to Financial Markets

- Make the Federal Reserve a Cabinet Position, so it is accountable to Congress, as well as making sure all Federal Reserve Bank presidents are appointed by the President and answerable to congress.

- Reduce conflicts of interest by taking away power for auditor and rating agency selection from companies and placing it in the hands of the SEC to be administered on random assignment.

- Implement a securities speculation tax, starting with derivatives to deter casino-style capitalism.


What say you, fussy britches?

Do you honestly believe the Democrats are your saviours? Do you really, truly believe they reflect, represent, stand for the things in which you supposedly believe? Can you give concrete legislative examples? Have you heard of the "Washington Consensus?" Nixon famously proclaimed, "we're all Keynesians now." Horribly farcical and ironic that your Party has flipped that.

Fact is, as I noted in my first response, most of your Party have for a generation fundamentally and actively opposed such principles and policies, including your boy Clinton and Sen. Dodd, now ironicly trotted out as the Sage Chief on directing the bailout. What a joke. And yet you persist in believing in some idealistic myth of Holy Democrats. Face it, as Robert Reich wrote 7 years ago (and has been true for at least 17), that Democratic Party is dead (to the extent that it ever really existed). With very few exceptions, in this era the principle difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is the velocity with which their knees hit the floor when the corporations come pounding on their door.


And by the way, no small point here, since you're heaving outrage, responsibility, and invective at "the herd," what have you actually been doing all these years that you're blaming and fobbing off on everyone else? Just complaining? Just voting for shysters who put a "D" next to their names? Sorry, doesn't count. Is this projection? What causes or organisations have you actively supported and worked for? Or is it nothing but scattershot rants on the internet?

I suspect most of your admonishments should be turned back on yourself.
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yes, surfrider, thank you for bringing that up. I was going to mention it myself. Here I am lamenting the oligarchic duopoly that is the Congress. I alluded to the Imperial Presidency above and would be remiss not to point out that the Congress has over the years, now to a point of great alarm, willingly abdicated its power and responsibilities to the Executive Branch, which has in concert simultaneously instituted, declared, and concentrated more power unto itself, the examples of which are too numerous to list here. We're facing a Constitutional Crisis and almost nobody is talking about it. Andrew Bacevich is one. Bruce Fein is another, Jonathan Turley. I've mentioned them on this forum before, actually.

Generic Sobriquet wrote:
I doubt highly that Obama, on January 21st, would volunteer to relinquish all the unconstitutional, autocratic power that has in recent decades, and especially the tenure of this past Administration, been consolidated in the Executive Branch, particularly in the Executive Office of the Presidency. This a whole other crucial subject fundamental to our government and country, but never raised (or apparently even realised). http://www.playjazzguitar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=36745#36745

PD, you should read the post in that link, as well as the one it references. I am so totally GOP. Rolling Eyes
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Phrygian Dominant



Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 583
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generic Sobriquet wrote:
PD, so, were you referring to me? Do you still baselessly and fallaciously believe I must be a right-wing "kool-aid drinker" simply because I don't fall in line with your Party, deluded faith in them, and parroted talking points?

You claim you called this meltdown back in June. Myself and others predicted this 10 years ago (and I can prove it). What were you doing and thinking over that period? The Democrats?

Then your inane solution: we should mindlessly and unquestioningly hand over our votes to your church—I mean, Party—and its saviours, especially Messiah Obama (because, after all, we do now have an Imperial Presidency and you, most people, seem to be fine with that). Unapoligetically I say that no one is entitled to my vote, with particular disdain for those who believe they are.

By contrast, I would like to share with you the 10-point plan that I support for this financial crisis and have advocated for years. Tell me whether any of this sounds rightist/conservative to you, as well as who in your Party has proposed such legislation. Oh wait, too late. Your damn fool, timid, spineless, brain-dead, corporate-owned, sell-out, back-stabbing, sans principles Democrats already blew it and caved and abdicated to the GOP, WallStreet and Corporate America—again.

Nevertheless:

Quote:
Immediate Changes Required for Any Bailout

- No bailouts without conditions and reciprocity in the form of stock warrants

- No more lobbying for any company that is bailed out

- No golden parachutes and get out of jail free cards for guilty executives

- No bailouts without public hearings

Changes to Housing Market

- Reduce the moral hazard in U.S. mortgage markets by introducing covered bonds for the majority of mortgage products as they do in Western Europe. That gives institutions that finance mortgages an incentive to be prudent, because they cannot just unload them and wipe their hands clean of the liability, but are instead on the hook if the homeowner defaults.

- Maintain neighborhood stability and housing security by passing a law with a sunset clause allowing below median-value homeowners facing foreclosure the right to rent-to-own their homes at fair market value rates.

- Avoid future housing bubbles by removing implicit government guarantees for new mortgages that exceed thresholds of greater than 15-20 times the annual fair market rent value of the home.

Structural Changes to Financial Markets

- Make the Federal Reserve a Cabinet Position, so it is accountable to Congress, as well as making sure all Federal Reserve Bank presidents are appointed by the President and answerable to congress.

- Reduce conflicts of interest by taking away power for auditor and rating agency selection from companies and placing it in the hands of the SEC to be administered on random assignment.

- Implement a securities speculation tax, starting with derivatives to deter casino-style capitalism.


What say you, fussy britches?

Do you honestly believe the Democrats are your saviours? Do you really, truly believe they reflect, represent, stand for the things in which you supposedly believe? Can you give concrete legislative examples? Have you heard of the "Washington Consensus?" Nixon famously proclaimed, "we're all Keynesians now." Horribly farcical and ironic that your Party has flipped that.

Fact is, as I noted in my first response, most of your Party have for a generation fundamentally and actively opposed such principles and policies, including your boy Clinton and Sen. Dodd, now ironicly trotted out as the Sage Chief on directing the bailout. What a joke. And yet you persist in believing in some idealistic myth of Holy Democrats. Face it, as Robert Reich wrote 7 years ago (and has been true for at least 17), that Democratic Party is dead (to the extent that it ever really existed). With very few exceptions, in this era the principle difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is the velocity with which their knees hit the floor when the corporations come pounding on their door.


And by the way, no small point here, since you're heaving outrage, responsibility, and invective at "the herd," what have you actually been doing all these years that you're blaming and fobbing off on everyone else? Just complaining? Just voting for shysters who put a "D" next to their names? Sorry, doesn't count. Is this projection? What causes or organisations have you actively supported and worked for? Or is it nothing but scattershot rants on the internet?

I suspect most of your admonishments should be turned back on yourself.


First I never mentioned your name in my previous post so the fact that you assume that I was talking about you is just a testament to your own narcissism.

Again you make assumptions and try to put words in my mouth which is why I'm getting bored trying to dialogue with you. I predicted this would happen the day George W. Bush was "elected" in 2000, I just wrote it on THIS forum in June. I will agree with you on one thing though and that is that there are far too many democrats (with a small d) in congress right now who are so conservative that they are basically "republican light". There are only a relative few (big D) Democrats in congress anymore. By big D I mean real progressive Democrats like a JFK or an FDR. The reason I blame "the herd" is that, judging by who really controlled congress and the White House for the last 30 years, it's obvious that the majority of people voted them into office because they bought the "swift boat" type campaigns that were waged against real liberal Democrats for the last 30 years+. They were mind controlled and duped into voting against their own self interests, through fear and flat out lies, and that's why I call them "the herd". FINALLY, only because of the collapse of our financial system, the conservative owned mainstream media is beginning to have the backbone to expose these conservative lies and distortions for what they are. So maybe just maybe there is hope in the long term?

Again you're putting word in my mouth by stating that I'm "blindly" supporting democrats or something. No what I am doing is pointing out the utter insanity of conservative republican policies and that for the time being the best move we can make is to get rid of them from our government as quickly as possible. I think right now that should be fairly obvious. Further I think the best move to make for the time being is to make sure that some real "big D" Democrats are elected so that there can really be a true counter to the conservative party and the "small d" democrats in congress.

As far as my solution seeming simple well the fact is that the solution isn't rocket science. Wages have stagnated under conservative republican policies over the last 30 years, that's a fact! Think about it, 20 years ago you could get an entry level job that paid a certain amount and now today that same entry level position doesn't pay any more than it did 20 years ago, that's not right. In fact once you factor in inflation it pays even less in most cases. Prices have consistently risen over that time. If the middle class doesn't have money they can't support American business. Then they resort to buying far too much on credit but they are really broke (just like our government is now under conservative policies). I support real "BIG D" Democrats because one of their "core values" if you will is that the best way to grow the economy is to create good paying jobs that will put money in the hands of the middle class. That also happens to be what I believe so yes I support that, not blindly as you say but for a reason. Also they believe in regulating business enough to ensure fairness and to put a check on the greed, corruption, and monopoly that has led to every previous financial collapse in America.

You and others can call the democrats names all you want but the fact is that it takes a majority of votes in congress to enact any laws and a President who won't veto the bill if you do somehow manage to get it through. The fact is that the democrats have not had those votes in congress essentially for the last 30 years. Also in that time "the herd mentality" has caused almost all of the Big d democrats to loose elections to small d democrats or "republican light".

What I am saying is learn from history, enough is enough, let's stop the insanity! Capitalism works but greed, corruption, monopoly, and low wages for labor undermine it. It's been demonstrated time and time again if you pay attention, I'm not just making this stuff up. You see those are things that are your enemy not liberal democrats, like you've been led to believe.
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narcissism? What the hell? Rolling Eyes

An important semantic correction is called for here. You're using "big D" and "small d" incorrectly. "Big-D Democrat" has long and universally referred to anyone in the Democratic Party, regardless of where they sit on the spectrum. "Small-d democrat" has referred to one who believes in the principle of democracy—not ever conservative Democrats. The same goes for big-R Republicans and small-r republicans. (And while it should go without saying, I nonetheless feel the need to point out that republicanism is a form of representative democracy.) Don't believe me? Do some LexisNexis searches. Apply those proper definitions to how you've misused the terms and see why I point it out.

Secondly, again, while you're running from your earlier contentions and claim I'm putting words in your mouth, it's still clearly evident to me that you believe the Democrats stand for things for which they don't actually stand—these "core values" of which you speak. Like I said, this Party you seem to envision and mythologise doesn't exist, and it's got nothing to do with seat numbers. It has everything to do with a fundamental shift in the Party's "core values" and platform. This was initiatied by the DLC "New Democrats" in the late 80's and early 90's with Clinton as their poster boy. Embrace deregulation and big business, become anti-union, support so-called "free trade," strike national health care in favor of bullshit-named "universal health care" (hello, Obama), forget a living wage, make friends with Wall Street and trumpet it as an economic indicator rather than wages and standard of living, shred antitrust laws and remove barriers to mergers and acquisitions (monopoly), triangulation, on and on. Those are now the mainstream "core values" of the Democrat Party, period. Look at the official DNC party platform (to the extent that it's anything more than rhetorical fluff).

What positions do you believe Obama takes on these issues? Do you genuinely believe he supports national health care, a living wage, strong market regulations and a crackdown on corporate crime, fraud, and abuse, anti-poverty measures, unions, fair trade? We could do a point-by-point, issue-by-issue rundown, if you like.

And sure, the Democrats like to claim credit for the creation of jobs, and so do the Republicans. It's good for campaigns. But it's about quantity, not quality. Clinton and all his fans like to boast about all these jobs he (and he alone, of course) supposedly created. Ask the 30% of Americans who constitute the working poor if they heard about that and their reply will be, "yeah, I'm working two of them!" They're Wal-Mart jobs (Hillary). It's replacing a single good-paying job that included benefits and a pension with two or three shit jobs. It's bogus.

Democrats have been in the Congressional minority for 30+ years? Say what? No, from 1994-2006. And "swift boating" was only coined in 2004 and has nothing to do with economic issues. What the hell? And have you ever heard of a veto override? How about a filibuster?

And I don't see the mainstream media calling out the conservatives or the establishment elites. What are you talking about, specifically? They can't, they are of it. That's like thinking Keith Olbermann would criticise Microsoft or GE. You'll never see it. No, I see them going along with the same alarmist presuppositions about the current situation that Bush, Paulson, et al are claiming. "We need immiediate bailout for Wall Street and the Banks or else Depression!" "The CRA is to blame!" Come on.

While it may not be so, you come off to me as though you're new to politics. You seem to have your political and legislative history wrong. You seem to be buying and selling cheap talking points from the party line and their surrogates rather than researching and thinking for yourself.

Finally, I'm curious. Would you name some of whom you consider to be the "good progressive Democrats" in Congress? And, by the way, answer some of the questions in my previous post? You didn't respond to, address, or rebut any of my points or questions.


[Er, fastidious editing. Embarassed ]


Last edited by Generic Sobriquet on Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:19 pm; edited 11 times in total
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