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What I need to learn bebop
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drjordan



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Covington, GA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: What I need to learn bebop Reply with quote

I took some jazz guitar lessons a couple of years ago, but I got married (so, I couldn't really afford lessons at $50/hr) and got a new job with its weird 6 days on, 3 days off schedule. I didn't really know what I wanted to learn, but I think I've figured out what I want to learn to play...bebop.

I still don't know much about jazz. So, here's a video of one of my favorite guitarist...country guitarist Brent Mason. The tune he plays at the beginning of the video is the type of music I'd like to learn. Note: Gibson has started making a Brent Mason signature guitar, so the guitar on this video doesn't have very good tone. But normally, Brent's tone is killer.

Anyway, I'm fine with learning standards, but I don't know which ones to learn and how to learn them. I much prefer DVD instructional video to books and CDs. Can you recommend some good material?

Thanks.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well where are you at now with your playing?

btw: thanks for the video, killer!
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eleven7



Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That 1st one sounded like gypsy jazz. He's a great player.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha, prog country jazz! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeJHnkUKg_M
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drjordan



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Covington, GA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JakeJew wrote:
well where are you at now with your playing?

btw: thanks for the video, killer!


Oh, sorry. With general guitar playing, I'd say I was intermediate/advanced. With jazz guitar, I'm very much a beginner. I know some beginner jazzy chords (e.g. I know what makes a chord half diminished, diminished, augmented, etc) and I know just a couple of tunes. That's about it for me and jazz.

Thanks for any help.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drjordan wrote:
JakeJew wrote:
well where are you at now with your playing?

btw: thanks for the video, killer!


Oh, sorry. With general guitar playing, I'd say I was intermediate/advanced. With jazz guitar, I'm very much a beginner. I know some beginner jazzy chords (e.g. I know what makes a chord half diminished, diminished, augmented, etc) and I know just a couple of tunes. That's about it for me and jazz.

Thanks for any help.


hmm.

do you know (or can figure out) your major scales for the whole neck in all keys?

do you know some "jazz" voicings for 7, m7, maj7, and m7b5? how about chords like 7b9, 7#9, m9, etc?

what standards do you know now? I think anybody who is into bebop should check out rhythm changes, tunes like anthropology, dexterity, and oleo, as well as 12 bar blues in the swing style, billie's bounce, tenor madness, straight no chaser, um...there are a lot of these. Learn the chords and the melody.
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drjordan



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Covington, GA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JakeJew wrote:
drjordan wrote:
JakeJew wrote:
well where are you at now with your playing?

btw: thanks for the video, killer!


Oh, sorry. With general guitar playing, I'd say I was intermediate/advanced. With jazz guitar, I'm very much a beginner. I know some beginner jazzy chords (e.g. I know what makes a chord half diminished, diminished, augmented, etc) and I know just a couple of tunes. That's about it for me and jazz.

Thanks for any help.


hmm.

do you know (or can figure out) your major scales for the whole neck in all keys?

do you know some "jazz" voicings for 7, m7, maj7, and m7b5? how about chords like 7b9, 7#9, m9, etc?

what standards do you know now? I think anybody who is into bebop should check out rhythm changes, tunes like anthropology, dexterity, and oleo, as well as 12 bar blues in the swing style, billie's bounce, tenor madness, straight no chaser, um...there are a lot of these. Learn the chords and the melody.


Yes, I know or can figure out the major scales for the whole neck. Usually I use the scales in the E or C position, but I know or can figure out the rest.

I know some of the "jazz" voicings, but certainly not all of them.

I know "My Romance" and "Gee, Baby Ain't I Good to You". I think I learned a few more, but I can't remember. Not a lot of standards either. I did a Youtube search of the songs you mentioned. That's the style I'm interested in learning. What are some good teaching materials that I can use?

Thanks again.
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Viper



Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 568
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I took some jazz guitar lessons a couple of years ago, but I got married


You are not the only who made that mistake Laughing Rolling Eyes
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drjordan wrote:
JakeJew wrote:
drjordan wrote:
JakeJew wrote:
well where are you at now with your playing?

btw: thanks for the video, killer!


Oh, sorry. With general guitar playing, I'd say I was intermediate/advanced. With jazz guitar, I'm very much a beginner. I know some beginner jazzy chords (e.g. I know what makes a chord half diminished, diminished, augmented, etc) and I know just a couple of tunes. That's about it for me and jazz.

Thanks for any help.


hmm.

do you know (or can figure out) your major scales for the whole neck in all keys?

do you know some "jazz" voicings for 7, m7, maj7, and m7b5? how about chords like 7b9, 7#9, m9, etc?

what standards do you know now? I think anybody who is into bebop should check out rhythm changes, tunes like anthropology, dexterity, and oleo, as well as 12 bar blues in the swing style, billie's bounce, tenor madness, straight no chaser, um...there are a lot of these. Learn the chords and the melody.


Yes, I know or can figure out the major scales for the whole neck. Usually I use the scales in the E or C position, but I know or can figure out the rest.

I know some of the "jazz" voicings, but certainly not all of them.

I know "My Romance" and "Gee, Baby Ain't I Good to You". I think I learned a few more, but I can't remember. Not a lot of standards either. I did a Youtube search of the songs you mentioned. That's the style I'm interested in learning. What are some good teaching materials that I can use?

Thanks again.


the gist of a basic jazz voicing is either like this:

Amaj7: 5x66xx

or

Dmaj7: x546xx

the first one is root, seventh, third, the second is root, third seventh. So if you know the spelling for different seventh chords, you just adjust the thids and sevenths to fit the chord type. example, Dm7 x535xx and Am7 5x55xx

Generally, you can omit the fifth.

adding tensions or alterations to these chords is simple if you know the fretboard/scales

Amaj13 5x667x

Dmaj9 x5465x

A7b13 5x566x

I don't know of any specific book that breaks this stuff down but I bet there are hundreds of them out there. Also probably some youtube clips if you just look up "jazz guitar voicings" the sky is the limit with this stuff, but this is the foundation.

Also, if you're playing with a bass player, there's no need to play that low note all the time, so Amaj7 can just be played like this xx66xx, Dmaj7 like this xx46xx

Is that helpful? Stuff you already knew years ago? Over your head? Just about right?

As for the tunes I mentioned, how are your ears? I think the best thing is always to go straight to the source: figure it out from record, just like the greats did. There are great computer programs easily available that can help you figure out music by slowing it down and breaking it up into parts.

when givin a chance to respond to this type of question, I personally don't really favor the " what books to get" approach. Which isn't entirely fair on my part, because I just haven't used that many books, and the few that I do have have been somewhat helpful. The point is that I think learning music from music, at least in the case of jazz, is the most important. That means at best transcribing, and at least trying to cop some licks, or play along with the rhythm of a record, that kind of thing.

Oh, also, listening! listening, listening, listening! Bebop is wierd shit. Doesn't sound very natural to most at first, so emulating it is quite difficult. A great thing to do (that will drive your friends and loved ones crazy) is to just listen to it all the time. If you really want to dig into bebop, get some charlie parker, bud powel, dizzie, charlie christian, tal farlow, herb ellis, red garland, oscar peterson, on and on, and just listen listen listen listen. Listen while in the shower! Listen while sleeping. Listen while crossing the street!

When I started with this stuff I just had a couple cds that i would listen to over and over again. One of them was simply a mix of 20 mp3s or so that were all Charlie Parker playing mostly those tunes I mentioned as well as some others.
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ingeneri



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

identify as many instances of this cadence as you can find. There are two major song forms dominant in Be Bop: blues and rhythm changes. Once you become comfortable with both, you'll already know how to solo on many tunes even before you learn the melody/head. Also, unlike most rock and pop tunes, standards and jazz tunes change keys, so be sure to find what the tonal center is.

I think too many people get buried in practicing technique. Music is not insert Tab A into Slot B. Nonetheless, you will need some basic familiarity with the instrument that will likely be more demanding. You'll need to know the major scale in as many positions as possible. Awareness of the major, minor, and dominant arppeggios, and how they fit into the scale patterns, will also help meaningful solos with the simpler notes.

For study material, you should check out our host's Play What You Hear course available on this site. For online instruction, master Bop guitarist Jimmy Bruno's site gets people actually playing real music in a remarkable short time: http://www.jimmybrunoguitarinstitute.com

Best of luck.


Last edited by ingeneri on Tue May 18, 2010 3:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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stratocasturbator



Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 286
Location: South Orange, NJ

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

confused. you say you don't know much about jazz, yet want to learn to play bebop. then you say you want to sound like/play like brent mason, whose style (to my ears--I'm quite familiar with both brent's style and the video you mention) has very little to do with bebop. brent's all about hot rod tele playing, and jerry reed, chet atkins etc. bebop comes from a much different place--postwar urban 1940s: charlie parker, dizzy gillespie, thelonius monk, bud powell, etc. brent plays some jazzy stuff later in the video on a thinline gibson, but it's still very much in the country/fusion vein.

so, putting "bebop" aside for the moment, I'd suggest you look into chet atkins and some 1950s jazz (as opposed to just 1940s bebop). check out hank garland too. very much a leading player of the country/jazz crossover of the 1950s/60s. and jimmy bryant was a great player with that similar sort of influence. and that might lead you into checking out bob wills and texas swing bands. which might suggest some ernest tubbs records (whom mason mentions in the video).

listen first, study later. once you get your terms defined (and by all means check out some actual bebop and see if you can hear where these things all connect), then start thinking about what you want to work on playing-wise. Cool
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratocasturbator wrote:
confused. you say you don't know much about jazz, yet want to learn to play bebop. then you say you want to sound like/play like brent mason, whose style (to my ears--I'm quite familiar with both brent's style and the video you mention) has very little to do with bebop.


I agree that Brent's bread and butter is the country style, but he was playing tons of bebop influenced licks over that blues. Peep the lydian dominant lick over the II7 in the bridge!
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sunflower



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 581

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I still don't know much about jazz. So, here's a video of one of my favorite guitarist...country guitarist Brent Mason. The tune he plays at the beginning of the video is the type of music I'd like to learn.


Yea I wouldn't mind some of those chops myself ......
there's plenty of Jazz melody and harmony ideas to cop there
on that first tune and great picture close-ups too

Its a Blues in G A section
with a C7 , G7 , A7 , D7 bridge
AABA format

His brother Randy's a great rhythm player too
............ for a drummer Wink
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drjordan



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Covington, GA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stratocasturbator wrote:
confused. you say you don't know much about jazz, yet want to learn to play bebop.


Why is that confusing? Did I mix up terms? Bebop is a subgroup of "jazz", right?

stratocasturbator wrote:
then you say you want to sound like/play like brent mason, whose style (to my ears--I'm quite familiar with both brent's style and the video you mention) has very little to do with bebop.


I'm not talking about his instructional video, I linked a video in my original thread.

stratocasturbator wrote:
so, putting "bebop" aside for the moment, I'd suggest you look into chet atkins and some 1950s jazz (as opposed to just 1940s bebop). check out hank garland too. very much a leading player of the country/jazz crossover of the 1950s/60s. and jimmy bryant was a great player with that similar sort of influence. and that might lead you into checking out bob wills and texas swing bands. which might suggest some ernest tubbs records (whom mason mentions in the video).

listen first, study later. once you get your terms defined (and by all means check out some actual bebop and see if you can hear where these things all connect), then start thinking about what you want to work on playing-wise. Cool


Now I'm confused. Very Happy I'm somewhat familiar with Bob Wills, Hank Garland, and the first style of lead guitar I learned was Chet style. But to me that's more country than jazz. I'm looking to learn jazz, not jazz-flavored country. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned a country guitarist to start with. Sorry. Smile

I have started listening to more and more jazz. I'm thinking of maybe getting some sort of material that transcribes some good standard tunes. I'm not very good at transcribing tunes myself. Any recommendations? For some reason, when I hear the greats playing something that I'm trying to learn (as opposed to something I've never played before), I tend to pick up on more of what they are doing. Does that make sense?

Thanks again for all of the input.
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stratocasturbator



Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 286
Location: South Orange, NJ

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok then. well yeah I guess I saw brent mason and thought country, and suggested artists that I know he is/was into.

for pure "bebop" -- the real deal, it's pretty simple: charlie parker. and thelonious monk is real important too. and diz. and bud. etc. but charlie parker's phrasing, writing/tunes/harmonic concept and his recordings are the crucial component. the way he spells out chords in his lines, the way he took something like "indiana" and turned it into "donna lee"... it's all there. simple, really. but getting it all to sink in, takes time. good luck. it's a fun journey. I'm still on it. Cool
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