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Blues jam : must know songs ?
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MangoTango



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 307
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Actually, you're ignoring the fact that the history involved is part of British history too. We may have been on the bad end of it, but for better or in this case worse, it's part of what has been and is known here as well. Am I trying to give you lessons? I know nothing of you other than what I see on here, so I have no idea what you know or don't. If you feel that I'm being didactic, then I'm happy to apologise with no offence intended.

2) Hurt feelings? Be your age. A sardonic reflection on the national state of play, nothing more, thus the sporting reference (linked mostly to how badly England were doing in the Ashes at that particular moment. Yes, that serious). One of our other things that we do here involvess a tendency to revert to graveyard humor and the like to lighten the load. Ask your mate in Brum.

Actually, don't. You feel that you have to give somebody the business because of something that some guy posted on a message board on the internet? Confused Hey, it's your phone bill.

3) Let's have a look at this thread so far. Guy comes on wanting gto know about what blues songs he should be playing. Everyone chips in to help, you wade in with your Clapton/Winwood comments. I have tried at various points since to make a point about their carrying blues music to places it wouldn't otherwise have gone whilst (mostly) wrapping things up in humour. You on the other hand....

Clearly I am clueless about the Generic Sobriquet perspective on life. From the stuff I see from you on this board, I don't get you. That's fine, everyone's different and the world would be a dull place if we were all the same. You however....well, you carry on mate, I shall leave well alone in future.
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MangoTango wrote:
You feel that you have to give somebody the business because of something that some guy posted on a message board on the internet? Confused Hey, it's your phone bill.

For the record, that was tongue-in-cheek, and he lives here now (hence "originally from"). I only have to take a walk to sock him in the arm. "Feck! What was that for?" ... "One of your countrymen was saying stupid shite on this web forum." ... "Oh, ok. What'd the git say?"

My own humour tends toward the sardonic, sarcastic, satirical, acerbic, wry (one of the reasons my Brit friend and I get along—and why growin' up I was more welcome and comfortable among "punks" and "artsy-fartsies" than with a lot of the crackers wanking on their wrongheaded notions of the traditionally "black music" of the blues, R&B, and/or funk). Tends not to translate on the web, evidently (first forum in which I've participated and half of my jokes seem to be misinterpreted or entirely missed).

3) Again, I didn't bring up those blokes or make it specifically about the English (or even whites, initially). But to their having "carr[ied]blues music to places it wouldn't otherwise have gone"—that's exactly what I've been getting at since my first reply (which wasn't about Winwood/Clapton, incidentally): Their ilk (not solely the English—notice I also mentioned Kenny G and John Mayer, neither British...Pat Boone and Elvis, whom I also despise, could have got a mention, too) carried the music to other places, indeed. They carried it off to where it was no longer genuinely the blues, in my estimation. As voodobop alluded to, the blues isn't (wasn't) just about superficialities of particular chord progessions and pentatonic scales, or partyin' and havin' a good time. And I don't care if Clapton engaged in self-destructive behaviour in a vain attempt to try to justify himself, either.

You may like the music these people play, but I say it's not really the blues, but rather some formalised, souless, plastic imitation. Or, at least, if to be less pejorative, it's just something else. Which is why my very first response ("if you're lucky...") was what it was, and the next was what it was.

The same general principle and criticism goes for some of what has been termed "jazz" over the last say 40 years (Miles' late stuff and alumni, Weather Report, Cobham and Abercrombie, Corea, Scofield, Spyro Gyra, Holdsworth, Frisell, Kreisberg, et al; so-called fusion, instrumental funk&soul&rock, smooth, new-wavey-agey, whatever and whatnot), as I've lamented more than once on this board. But also including the commercial swing like Glenn Miller (so it's nothing new). All these may (or may not) be great in their own right, but it's something else, says I.

What if I began playing the musical superficialities of traditional English or Celtic or Arabic or Native American or Peruvian folk or [wherever the OP is from] music without any idea of, regard for, or respect to its substantive cultural meaning and history? If I appropriated and claimed it as my own (as an African American), bastardised it, misrepresented it, maybe jam it on the one and give it flat out funk grooves, do it with my Roland TR-606 and JUNO-6? Then subsequently gained popularity through it, popularising my wack version of it? And moreover, claimed it not as something else merely and partially influenced by this music, but that it actually was this traditional music, every bit as genuine? Wouldn't that be absurd, maybe even offensive to the people who created and owned that music? I think so. In a sense, I think I have no business playing that music, at least not outside my own home.

Can you dig that?

Anyway, I'm tired. You?
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MangoTango



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 307
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muchly so, and will finish with one last post on this, which I hope you will take as is meant. I agree with you entirely on some of what you say. I don't think that it's possible for some white guy born in a modern era to do anything more than attempt to approximate music that was produced by black bluesmen in the early part of the last century. It's a different culture and a different era, so it can never be authentic. Yes it's something else, because it has to be; but does that mean that the music produced is automatically bad, just because it cannot ever be what it's trying to be?

(That's a rhetorical question).

BTW, my own family background is part Irish, part Scots, with a Jewish element. Are my attempts to play jazz doomed forever to produce instead some demented Celtic/Klezmer fusion? Wink

(That is too)
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MangoTango wrote:
BTW, my own family background is part Irish, part Scots, with a Jewish element. Are my attempts to play jazz doomed forever to produce instead some demented Celtic/Klezmer fusion? Wink

See now, there's a part of me that wants to reply, "if you want it to be any good it will!" Huh?

By the way, notice how much British spelling I used in my previous post?
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MangoTango



Joined: 08 Sep 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm energized by the flavor of your humor. Wink





You have no idea how much I want to edit the above sentence Laughing
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ingeneri



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by ingeneri on Mon May 24, 2010 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cross-pollination is great. I'm always trying to "expand my musical horizons," as they say, and finding out about, learning, and integrating international musics in particular is something I've been deliberately, actively pursuing (or trying to pursue—sidetracked now and then, you know). I think it would be fun as hell, and intellectually (and "soul," if you like) enriching, to go spend some quality time experiencing and studying Celtic and Klezmer music, and even the resulting "demented fusion," if such a thing existed. (That is, if I weren't already committed elsewise—more on that later.)

Hell, the blues itself wasn't created out of whole cloth.

But I wasn't arguing against that in and of itself. It's how it's used and represented. Is it used and abused in a vulgar, superficial manner, something as described in that quote; or is it given its proper due and respect and understanding?
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ingeneri



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by ingeneri on Mon May 24, 2010 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've been in that sort of situation. Not uncommon around here. Sad and filthy.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ingeneri wrote:
I think both the good in depth creative cross- polinization and the cheapo shallow rip off kind have been going on forever. Got to take the good with the bad.

Go Blueshammer! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaM6lTmhnak&feature=related



man I remember that scene! Classic!
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stratocasturbator



Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 286
Location: South Orange, NJ

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow. just catching up on these threads, and again I'm finding one that starts out innocently enough, but descends into another squabble over race, and now we have "cracker" to add to last month's "honky." Rolling Eyes

jeepers, I'm just glad the question didn't involve the top 20 blues jam tunes to play on a chinese-made guitar, or else gensob's head might well explode (and then this forum's content would be forced to fall back to discussions of boring old jazz guitar)... Cool
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Jazzie



Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 19
Location: US

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man! I'm just not feeling a lot of love here. Back on topic...

Add these to your "must know" playlist:

Born Under a Bad Sign - Albert King
Boom Boom - John Lee Hooker
Pride and Joy - Stevie Ray Vaughan
Killing Floor - Howlin' Wolf
The Thrill Is Gone - B.B. King
The Little Red Rooster - Willie Dixon
Messin' With The Kid - Junior Wells
Mannish Boy - Muddy Waters
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Viper



Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 568
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's Official Muhammad Ali is of Irish descent.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/01/muhammad-ali-freedom-ennis-ireland
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Generic Sobriquet



Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What was the point of posting that?
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Viper



Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 568
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't remember. I don't think he plays guitar. Mind you asking what the point of something is is a fraught question.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xkw8ip43Vk
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