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Starting to work on bebop
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Starting to work on bebop Reply with quote

I'm having trouble creating bebop lines.

The phrasing sounds correct, but the problem I'm having is that my lines sound extremely diatonic. I don't really know where to pull from other sources besides just the chord.

If anyone could give me an example line or a video that I can kind of dissect, I'd really appreciate it.
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Jake Hanlon



Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 525
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bebop is very much all about learning Vocab by stealing licks

Transcription is one way to do this

Or reep the rewards of other people's transcriptions.

Both is needed imo. Learning to create lines by developing strong ears and learning how vocabulary is developed.

Bebop requires

1 - Technique
2 - Strong list of Tunes to work with
3 - Strong list of Vocabulary

go here

www.bopland.org

have run.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting to work on bebop Reply with quote

Volume Swell wrote:
I'm having trouble creating bebop lines.

The phrasing sounds correct, but the problem I'm having is that my lines sound extremely diatonic. I don't really know where to pull from other sources besides just the chord.

If anyone could give me an example line or a video that I can kind of dissect, I'd really appreciate it.


bebop baffled me for years. The biggest things that helped me were listening (a LOT) and transcription. I spent a long time on being able to make bop lines, I think it was a good thing because it was a foundation that was missing in my playing, although I know bebop is very un-hip to some people.

I'd say before anything, just analyze the heads. How does each note relate to the key and to the current chord, where are the accents, where (rhythmically) do the phrases start. Play them in all keys, improvise with them, try playing the same notes with different rhythms or the same rhythms with different notes, alter the line to fit a different chord change, etc etc. This is good stuff to do when trying to learn any new vocabulary, imo. Probably better to do this first (that's what I did) rather than learn solos or even try to make solos.
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much guys. I'm studying with a bebop professor next semester, and I'm really hoping that even before I go in there I'll be able to show at least some knowledge about the style.

I've tried looking at heads for pieces like Au Privave and Donna Lee, and working with the melody and chord relationship with good results. It's just making a long run that's giving me trouble. I always revert back to some old practicing technique that my ears are accustomed to.

Anyway, thank you for the website and the knowledge, I'll give these methods a try.
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Viper



Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 568
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
extremely diatonic


and of couse bebop (and I would say jazz in general) is chromatic so to speak the language you have put in the 'passing' notes.

I think its called the bebop blues scale or something like that look it up and try and use it.

playing chromatically mean you have to change position more than in other idioms.

Arpeggios + appoggiature = jass

Ain't nothing more hip than bebop...


Last edited by Viper on Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I never thought of it that way(appoggiatura). So you're saying come in from outside of the key with a jump, and use arpeggios/some linear lines and you've got the outline of a bebop line?
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had teachers that spent a while with me with approach tones -

you can have a variety of things, like one above, one below, one above and one below, two above, two below, two above and two below, and it means that if your target note is C, then you can chromatically approach it or surround it to sort of make it more significant

here's a ii V I in Bb in a single measure starting on beat 1 (the last note is on beat 1 of the next measure)

C down to Bb down to G up to G# up to A up a sixth to Gb down to Eb up to E resolving to F

The A note comes on the downbeat for the F7 chord, and it's approached with "two below." G, G#, A, then the F note (the last note) on the Bb is approached with one above and two below - Gb, Eb, E, F. It also helps that the Gb is the b9 over the F7, adding extra tension that gets released when you play the F note over the Bb.

But with Charlie Parker & co the chromatic approach tones don't just happen anywhere, there are, like Jake H said, specific licks and ways that you'll see this. It's good to, when looking at the music, just observe the chromatic approaches, where are they, what are they, where are they in the beat. But you definitely can't play bebop without a hefty dose of chromaticism.

As a tangent, I think it's interesting to look at what happened to chromaticism as jazz progressed throughout the century, even in the next couple of decades. Some players got even more chromatic and many got distinctly less chromatic. I remember after playing bebop for a while I was trying to play in the style of Wes and one thing I realized that was holding me back was that Wes used far less chromaticism than somebody like Bird or Tal Farlow. A lot more stepwise motion or arpeggios in thirds. There are historical changes like that through all eras, I think it's interesting to pay attention to.
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After studying about the first 10 pages of bopland.org I can see how this works in general. Now here's my next question:

What about over something with just a single chord vamp. Can you imply progressions in your leads? I had the idea for it, something to sound more outside, but I don't really know how to implement this.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volume Swell wrote:
After studying about the first 10 pages of bopland.org I can see how this works in general. Now here's my next question:

What about over something with just a single chord vamp. Can you imply progressions in your leads? I had the idea for it, something to sound more outside, but I don't really know how to implement this.


Oh yeah for sure. If you have four bars of one chord, you can imply a bunch of stuff, like ii Vs and subs for ii Vs
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JakeJew wrote:
Volume Swell wrote:
After studying about the first 10 pages of bopland.org I can see how this works in general. Now here's my next question:

What about over something with just a single chord vamp. Can you imply progressions in your leads? I had the idea for it, something to sound more outside, but I don't really know how to implement this.


Oh yeah for sure. If you have four bars of one chord, you can imply a bunch of stuff, like ii Vs and subs for ii Vs


Nice that's pretty awesome and I'm sure with altered tensions it sounds crazy.
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volume Swell wrote:
JakeJew wrote:
Volume Swell wrote:
After studying about the first 10 pages of bopland.org I can see how this works in general. Now here's my next question:

What about over something with just a single chord vamp. Can you imply progressions in your leads? I had the idea for it, something to sound more outside, but I don't really know how to implement this.


Oh yeah for sure. If you have four bars of one chord, you can imply a bunch of stuff, like ii Vs and subs for ii Vs


Nice that's pretty awesome and I'm sure with altered tensions it sounds crazy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk5WrAs4Utw 1:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShLzrUM1cGs 1:17
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Diz clip I really couldn't tell what the progression was, but at 1:37 it sounded like the sax was going through a small progression... at light speed.

Is there any place I could find these recordings?
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volume Swell wrote:
In the Diz clip I really couldn't tell what the progression was, but at 1:37 it sounded like the sax was going through a small progression... at light speed.

Is there any place I could find these recordings?


in the chart it's just an F chord at that point, Charlie Parker sort of just invented all the other motion, which is what I was saying in my other post - the band might play one chord (or no chords) but the soloist can play off of chord progressions.

As for the recordings, it's a pretty famous tune, I think there are several recordings available, and many of them have a similar "improvised" break at that point in the song.
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Volume Swell



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After lots and LOTS of practice I have figured out how to make the bebop sounds. Thanks for all the help in this thread! The bopland link really helped me understand shaping and using tensions.
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Jazzy



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1660
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get omnibook and the baker books, they`re great, especially the first one.
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