PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum

[Generic Sobriquet]

What a lot of fallacious nonsense not even worth rebutting.


I will add this, however. You try to paint me as tilting at windmills (despite my active and productive community and music/arts involvement over 30 years), and yet what is your self-laudatory "practical solution?" Survey cards? That's it? You overestimate the invisible hand, my man.

First off, do you know anyone in the H&R industries? Is anyone on this site in one of these businesses and can speak up? I have known and continue to know several such people, some friends. Owners, executive chefs, bar managers, F&B managers, you name it. Plus, there's a cog factory here in town called Sullivan University that churns and spits out these people year round. I'm familiar with their texts and instructors, and what these people are taught.

What I and others can tell you is that in most cases, those survey cards are there mostly for your benefit. It's window dressing. And have you noticed what types of establishments most often supply those? You really believe the big guys care more about your concerns than the mom&pops?

Secondly, even if and when those cards have some influence, you think getting a few fellow musicians scattered about the country on a couple internet forums is going to be that effective? "Well, why do you bother arguing your positions and advocating this and that so intensely, angry, militant black man?" Fair enough. But even if I passed on this idea to every musician in this city, and they convinced a few of their friends, I'm sorry but not much is going to happen, not alone. It doesn't meet the bottom line.

Unfortunately, I get the strong sense that you're the type of person who derides, looks down upon, mocks the concept and real results of "community organizing." I'm sure you believe it's a bunch of naive, ineffectual commies or some shit. Community, social, cultural investment? Socialist social-engineering nonsense. DIY? Probably have to google that one.
_________________
lll
ll

[jamester]

[planetguy]

[ingeneri]

[stratocasturbator]

I've just got to say: who in blue blazes is moderating this forum? overtly racist commentary now...what does it take to get banned from this joint?

GS you clearly don't know what you're talking about: I do actually work in the market research field and have had quite a bit of involvement with clients in the hospitality and restaurant fields. (I hope that this response constitutes actually "reading" and "understanding" the related post.) regarding these survey cards, which I believe were the subject in the first place: not only are these typically used, I can cite, firsthand, at least two cases of industry-leading restaurateurs/hoteliers who insist that they be tallied and put into a market analysis report on a weekly basis. in one case I know of, it's considered so important that the report is hand-delivered to the CEO (his remarks to my team conveyed the thought that in the service business, customer opinions were his "only" concern). the verbatims are analyzed for themes, the scores are used to evaluate floor and kitchen staff, and customer comments can literally impact the kinds of music played or the brightness of the lights in the room.

maybe it would even suggest that live jazz might be a good investment. maybe not. but to dismiss such a suggestion, with no real knowledge of the subject (let's hear from everyone else who lives near a "cog factory"!) merely to bolster one's argument is small, and undignified, and to inject a racial slur into the argument is unacceptable. we are all brothers and sisters. if you can't get with that idea, then I haven't the slightest idea of why you'd be involved in jazz in the first place...

[Sandemose]

I dont like the vibe from most of GS posts, but what the heck, what are you gonna do about it. Still, I know GS have posted constructive thougts (about reading and memory)

http://www.playjazzguitar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4753

which I liked alot. Certainly there are more, but thats one. But when the discussions get out of controll (I might have contributed to that as well and I would gladly admit it if it was pointed out) I just feel like I want to drop it. I feel that GS tend to bend the conversation towards certain topics that only fire things up. Thats what I feel. I think its a shame, GS intellectual capacity could really be such a benefit for this forum...which it is...when he feels like it...

Best, Sandemose
_________________
"Its just a problem, we´ll deal with it" Ted Greene

[jazzerchick]

There's an organization to check out to see if you want to join. It replaces
IAJE and is a national assoc. for jazz ed., MENC.

http://www.menc.org/

It is a new org. so needs members and support. IAJE was a great thing for
jazz ed., with members who were teachers, performers, pros, students,
jazz fans, archivists,etc. There was a yearly conference of about 8,000
members every year. Big name performers and NEA grants every year.
Anyone involved in education would probably be interested in this group.
Trying to educate the kids in the arts is one way we can try to keep
live jazz going.

[Generic Sobriquet]

•

• I'm eager to see the first time someone smacks down one of Igiro's snide ideological/political remarks or diatribes.

• Angry, racist hate speech? Yeah, me and Obama, like Glenn Beck says, right? Laughable. Besides, didn't you all know this is now post-racial America?

• How about I say, if you don't think race/culture has any relation to jazz, I don't have the slightest idea why you should be involved with it in the first place. Myself, I was born into it.

•

[ingeneri]

[Generic Sobriquet]

You should have made the point about high end hotels from the beginning, although I remain not terribly fond of such places in general.

I didn't peg you a "race baiting fascist" (that's Igiro). Possibly conservative or center-right, in at least a generic if not ideological sense, yes. However, if you don't like my perceived assumptions, remember you assumed me to be "a 22 year old white socialist kid with a soul patch." One wonders why you would assume I was white, in particular.
_________________
lll
ll

[dewey decibel]

I try and support live music when I can, but let's face it- most live music is bad. Your average group (be it jazz, rock, pop, especially blues ) playing in a club, bar restaurant, hotel, etc is BAD.

IMO, there's two ways to support yourself in this business;

1) play every single gig you can

2) be discriminating, only play gigs with good players in suitable venues, and make a name for yourself

The first one is obvious as it's just a numbers game, but the second is a bit harder to understand. It's the difference between being a musician and an artist. The difference is not really defined by what you do, it's defined by your audience. For instance, the audience of a musician is simply people that want to hear jazz. You really don't have much control over that, there's not much you can do to make an audience choose your gig over someone else's. The audience of an artist are made up of people that want to hear you. Which one do you think is going to make more money?

The point is, it's hard to make a name for yourself playing every crappy pickup gig with crap players, as even if you're playing kills and stands out, the group sounds bad. Along the same lines, it's hard to stand out as "an artist" if your playing at the grocery store, TGI McApplebees or whatever, then if you're playing at boutique venues.

Which brings me to another point- the word boutique. We as jazz musicians have to understand that we will probably never be successful on a huge level. The best we can hope for is cutting a record and having a song licensed for a movie or commercial, which might bring us some national (or worldwide) exposure. But out music is never going to have the mass appeal that happens in other genres. So the way to be successful is to be "boutique"- here's the second definition according to my macbook dictionary;

[ingeneri]

[stratocasturbator]

I see we're now back on point. how nice.

I suppose it will never end, as long as there are socially-inclined mammals who long for an easier means toward a larger collective within their own particular area of interest, be it jazz or guitar hero, but as applied to the ceaseless all-together-now urgings that we do all we can to "promote" "jazz" I guess I just don't see how that's very important.

there are lots of reasons that jazz isn't the popular art form it once was, nor will likely become again. I think the greatest hope we had in recent years for a return to prominence was that swing dancing craze, which happened about a decade ago here in new york. but that spoke to the very reason that jazz became marginalized--it started as a means to DANCE. now we hear arguments from those who can't understand why this art form, having been transformed via the aesthetes of the bebop era, or the styles and attitudes of 50s/60s west coast, or urban hard bop, or fusion, or any of the other "developments" which are commonly seen as the jazz history line, hasn't returned it to prominence. well it's easy--none of them returned it to the dance hall. the 1930s had kids lined up around the block to get into the savoy. they don't do that anymore. and customer comments cards won't change that simple fact.

and I for one am perfectly ok with that. just because chamber music doesn't command the same money and profile as symphonic music, doesn't mean that it's less valuable or less meaningful to its devotees. but we never hear from chamber music fanatics about how they wish that the 16th century would make a comeback. they're just happy that someone still knows how to play a lute! just as I am happy that someone still knows how to play a tenor saxophone. but just the same, I'm not inclined to worry long or hard about the diminishing status of jazz in the eyes of many. however, I do feel gratitude when I see others getting frothy over their new beatles rock band video games, or gushing over their excitement at snagging some nickelback tickets--real gratitude that I'm not so inclined myself. it could be argued that one of the true appeals of jazz, perhaps one of its great values, is that it is always balanced against the cumulative excellence of what came before, and what is possible "in the moment." it does require something of us as both listeners and performers. it is an ambitious art form, and demands a dedication and focus which modern "pop" styles do not. in fact, isn't the disposability of most pop music part of its very attraction? to expect an entire culture to maintain a fascination with this very intimate and fleeting of experiences--the experience of musical improvisation--isn't reasonable. but to be able to do so on the necessarily personal level that it requires is rewarding, nourishing, and life-enriching. some will never get it. perhaps most. I'm just happy that I do. and also happy to be in touch with others who do as well.

[dewey decibel]

Well I was in NYC last month, and I wasn't trying to see any jazz but stumbled upon it multiple times. Twice in restaurants, and while it wasn't mind blowing it was pretty good (one of them happened to have Howard Alden on guitar). I was in DC last week and the same thing- I was walking looking for something to eat and heard jazz coming out of a club- I stood in the hallway for about 15 minutes (didn't want to pay the cover as I couldn't stay) and it was pretty good. Club was called Twins or something like that. But it's not like that everywhere. In fact, I'll almost say it's not like that anywhere but those couple cities on the east coast. I'm in chicago all the time, and while there's killer players there and a bunch of great venues, almost everytime I'm just walking down the street I'll hear TERRIBLE jazz coming out of some restaurant, bar or lounge. I mean cringe worthy.

I agree with you on some level, and I'd really like to be positive about this and support anyone doing anything musical, but I just can't. IMO it's bad music that screws it for the rest of us. It's that fact that the people that are the best self promoters are often the worst players. And the average restaurant, bar or lounge owner doesn't know the difference.

[Generic Sobriquet]

Ayep.
_________________
lll
ll