PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum

[akj375]

Hi all. I’m new to the forum, generally a beginner player, and I hope no one minds me getting into it immediately with a question. Why is it that if you play a diminished minor second chord as a transition to the ii-7 it sounds ok? Like in C for example, if you go CM7 -> Db (C#) Diminished - > Dmin7, it sounds nice. Obviously the Db (C#) Diminished is not diatonic, but sounds good (no clashes or odd notes) pulls you to the ii-7 chord. I’m looking for the technical or “theoretical” reason because if I understand the reasoning behind it, that it may have applications to other playing situations. Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer some insight.
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Don't know much, and have much more to learn.

[mr. beaumont]

it's a sub for a VI7 sound. (the vi can often be made a VI7 in a I vi ii V progression--listen to joe pass, he did ALL the time. since you're a beginner, I'm gonna leave my explanation at that for now without getting into some heady stuff that isn't totally necessary right now, just get the sound in you ears)

try this: play Cmaj7--A7--Dm7--G7

then play: Cmaj7--C#dim--Dm7--G7

hear it?

so "why" is the next question, right?

notes of an A7 chord: A, C#, E, G

notes of a C#diminished: C#, E, G, Bb

similar, eh? now play that A7 as an A7b9...there's the Bb. Now we're really hearing it.

it's a common sub--sounds very "swing" to me. The upward motion in the bass is nice, especially if you're playing in a situation without a bass player.
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“For the guitar is the most unpredictable and least reliable musical instrument in existence...and also the sweetest, the warmest, the most delicate, whose melancholic voice awakes in our soul exquisite reveries.”

Andres Segovia

[Viper]

You can go up or down the whole chordal scale (using 4 note chords 1.3.5.7 and appropriate inversions) putting dim on all the non chordal tones e.g.

CM7, C#dim7, Dm7, D#dim7, Em7, FM7, F#dim7, G7, G#dim7, Am7, A#dim7, Bm7b5, CM7

and you has a chromatic chordal scale. Complete with bass line in semitones, what larks, Pip.

I believe this is the primary function and derivation of the diminshed chord.

[akj375]

I'd like to thank you both for replying to my email with your helpful comments which I've spent sometime with and understand. But specifically Mr. Beaumont's comments raised on other important question for me. I have read that any diatonic chord within a harmonized scale can be played as a 7th chord. This is obviously the case at least with the 6th (as per your answer ) and it also sounds pretty cool if you do it with chords around the circle of 4ths. So what I'd like to know, and this may be a bit of a technical question, but what is it about the 7th chord that makes it sorta "neutral" so that it can function in this way? Any thoughts on what a player can take away from this concept? Thanks again for your great insights.

AJ.
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Don't know much, and have much more to learn.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

What's makes 7ths chords sound so good? Reminds me of a question asked in a British TV commercial for crisps (potato chips): "What makes Walker's Crisps taste so good?" They just do, may be the answer to both.

But take another step back. Forget 7th chords. Why triads? Why is Western Music (not just jazz, of course) ultimately based on triads? Why C-E-G and not C-F-B or C-G-D or C-E-F or...

It comes down to the overtones series. When you play the natural harmonics on a string you can isolate these overtones:

fundamental (open string)
octave (12th fret)
octave + 5th (7th fret)
2octave (5th)
2octave + 3rd (near 4th)

So the third and the fifth are the other notes that come up first in the overtone series, and this makes triads sound more stable than C-F-Bb for example.

Then we're into stacking thirds: C-E-G, so it's only a matter of time before musical styles continued stacking, to 7th chords, 9th chords and beyond. You can see this evolution in classical music. The first seventh chords were the dominant sevenths: G-B-D-F. This adds tension because not only does the leading tone B want to resolve to tonic C, but the F wants to resolve to E, too. By the time you get to late romanticism, they are using all the same crazy extended and altered chords as jazz.

So stacking thirds to make seventh chords has its roots in the stability of notes in the overtone series, and when playing chords in the circle of fifths, say G7->C7, GBDF->CEGBb, you have the pull of B->C and F->E. It moves you along. I guess that's why it's called a progression.

[M]

[Viper]

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think we're all agreeing with each other! Of course we think that sevenths chords sound good in jazz. If you were playing traditional country, or folk, or rock, etc... and started subbing in seventh chords you'd get strange looks.

[M]

The OP asked why Cmaj7 -> C#dim7 -> Dm7 sounded good.

You (bigdaddy) digressed to triads momentarily, and now you're talking about what is or isn't genre-specific. I'm not arguing with your observations ... they're just a tangent from what was originally questioned.

No harm, no foul?

[MangoTango]

[Gorecki]

[steve]

[Gorecki]