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Tombolino · Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Posts: 85 Location: Atlanta

Did you all learn all modes of melodic minor in as many positions as possible?

I find it very challenging for the visual patterns to stick memory wise. I am trying to learn them 3 notes per string.

I do have some "cheat" notes, example 1/2 step up works with x chord etc

Jazzy · Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1560 Location: Norway

Learn all your scales horizontally, on one string at the time. Start from the lowest possible note in the scale. Then move on to playing intervals on two strings, three strings etc. Endless possibilities here...

Try to absorb the sound of the scale, and not just memorize some finger patterns. And also learn the functions of each note in the scale, by this I mean, what does each note do to the chord it`s played against.

Also work with all the triads in the scale, voiceleading them in different progressions. Both closed and open positions.

And as Jazzplaya mentioned in another post, write things down. I always do this.

Anyway, hope some of this helps.

Michael
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Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 344

You've got to learn all the inversions/modes of every scale. So you should be able to play the scale in all positions up and down the fretboard. it just takes memorization which means playing the scale over and over in each position until you have them memorized and can play them with your eyes closed, backwards and forwards, like Igiro said.

The good thing is that once you get them ingrained in your brain so well that its just second nature you'll begin to have freedom to express yourself all over the entire range of the instrument. The different fingerings actually tend to bring out different ideas (licks) to you and that's another reason you need to learn them all.

So not only should you transpose all the fingerings of a scale to all twelve keys you should also learn every lick that you learn within a scale fingering to all the different positions of that scale within the same key, Mastery.

Once you get them all learned its time to actually start making music with them rather than just playing scales. The trick is that no matter what scale/mode/arpeggio/substitution thereof you play against a given chord you still have to play it in a way that sounds like the chord. So if you're playing Ab melodic minor against a G7 ALT chord you want to play the line in such a way that it still sounds like G7. Listen to as much jazz as you can and hear how the great players (Coltrane, Hubbard, Byrd, Montgomery, whomever) did it, transcribe lots of their lines, and eventually you'll start to get the idea.

Yup its a journey Wink

JakeJew · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 2018 Location: Boston, MA

Personally I'm not completely confident that learning all the modes of melodic minor up and down the fretboard is a great use of time. Good to know as a reference but personally I never really play in that way...I use melodic fragments and elaborations of the harmony that I've worked out beforehand or taken from some music or solo that I've liked and transcribed. Just for me personally, understanding melodic minor harmony is essential and having all those modes down on the fretboard is certainly useful but it just seems that there would always be something somewhat better to work on - even it's just arpeggiating some of the chords that come from MM, like a m7b5 with a 9.

But that's just me...I've learned them but I seldom find myself in a situation where I'm referencing back to that scale specifically (or any mode)
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Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 344

Igiro very well written post, you make some excellent points every aspiring virtuoso should consider. Smile

Jake I probably shouldn't have used the word "mode" because I really don't like that word anyway. Better terms would be "usages" and "fingerings" as in learning all the usages and fingerings/positions of all the different scales. The way I see it all of the different fingerings/positions of a scale connect together to create one big soundscape in a given context anyway. I don't like being limited to playing them in one certain "box" so I learn them in every position all along the length of the neck.

Right Jake there's definitely a lot of gold in arpeggio studies as well. Scales are pretty useless without a firm grasp of arpeggios in my book so learning your arpeggios in every position is a must IMO. That concept was inherent in my earlier statement about making phrases from a scale sound like the chord your playing over. There's definitely an art to combining everything to create music.

dewey decibel · Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 1674

First off, I agree with Jake.

Second, is there a scale you do know in all positions? If so what is it? And how is it different than melodic minor?

Whoa, look at that- you just learned melodic minor in all positions. Wink

JakeJew · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 2018 Location: Boston, MA

let me preface my response by saying i'm in a little bit of a crabby mood tonight so I apologize for any inference of a negative tone in this post

Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 344

WOW okay.

1) sure it's the same seven notes but there are also different pitches of those notes. Playing the notes in different pitch also has a different effect. For example, that's why most players usually put the extensions or alterations of a chord in the top or in the upper registers of a chord. Putting that same alteration in the bass has a different and often undesirable effect. Although I know sometimes putting an altered tone in the bass can be very effective, its still much more common in the upper registers. Therefore I think its essential to know them all over the neck so one can take advantage of the different sonic effect of playing things in different pitches.

2) Further when you go beyond natural harmony and include melodic and harmonic harmony etc we actually have 11 tones to consider plus the octave which makes a total of 12.

3) also consider this, all computer programming is based on only zeros and one's. That's only two different numbers but once you start combining them into longer strings (like phrases in music) it makes possible everything we do with computers, from us conversing on this forum to sending rockets to outer space. Just like combining the eleven notes in music and the 12 keys in varying ways makes ever increasing levels of complexity possible.

4) As far as your analysis of improvising over altered Dominant chords goes I think your considering some things that simply aren't that important. Basically I don;t care whether the dominant chord has a an 11 and a #11 or whatever. Its basically players choice whether I use Mixolydian b6 or Locrian #2 or whatever. Even if the dominant chord is all natural I still can use all the altered those options it doesn't really matter. What matters is the phrasing and the musicianship of the player to make it work and say something musical with it. The playing field is wide open. Really the only time I care about that is when using the whole tone scale to improvise licks because of the possible clash with chords with altered 9ths in them.

Sure sometimes if a Dominant b5 appears in a chart I'll opt for Lydian b7 but if it was a 7b5#9 I might still use Lydian b7. What's more important to me is the larger context of the tune and what sounds good within that larger context. So you really need to consider what comes before it and after it in the tune and see the big picture rather then a micro focus on the specific altered tones in one chord. The whole piece of music needs to fit together as a whole.

5) I really don't like the term mode because of the kind of, in my opinion, bad way of thinking about the guitar playing that it can lead to. Also even more importantly the flawed way of teaching the guitar it can lead to that tends to veil what is really going on.

And yeah I still believe its very beneficial to know this stuff all over the fretboard and Sure I know my melodic minor arpeggios all over the neck too, and use them quite often. If you're gonna arpeggiate a scale might as well know the whole scale first right?

randalljazz · Joined: 19 May 2009 Posts: 58

fwiw:

http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/showposts.php?dept=analysis&topic=20080923085713_randalljazz

sunflower · Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 572

sunflower · Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 572

Volume Swell · Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 250

To learn the melodic minor, I starting playing over a dominate chord with a lydian b7 scale. All I had to do was change one note from lydian, and I got used to the arpeggios from there.

Jazz Playa · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 344

dewey decibel · Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 1674

I'll give you my experience; I learned major scales in my own version of CAGED. From there I alter those CAGED patterns to fit other scales- melodic minor, harmonic minor, etc. No, I'm not as fluent running these scales as I am with a major scale, but then again I don't usually run scales when I play. Especially when it comes to altered lines and melodic minor harmony- I know enough to play the lines I hear in my head. These are usually based more on an arpeggio than a scale.

One thing that gets me with altered lines is something that Jake brings up, things like is it a b13th or a natural 13th. I feel that a lot of subtlety gets lost because so many are taught to simply "play the melodic minor a half step up", which is the fully altered scale. Running that scale rarely sounded good to me. But running say, a min/maj7 arpeggio did. IMO, when it comes to altered harmony it's often not what you play but what you DON'T play.

I think of these things like colors. Sure red is always red and blue always blue, but when you put things next to each other, in context, red can look different. For example:

Bezold effect

The red seems lighter combined with the white, and darker combined with the black. Same about the rest of the colors when you see them on white and black. These color shades influence the way you see the other colors.

That's the same shade of red, but it looks darker with the black background. It's just like harmony, it depends on context. A b9 sounds different when paired with a b13th than a natural 13th (or no 13th at all). I don't expect everyone to agree with me here, but this is how I hear it.

My point is, don't run scales over altered chords. So there's no need to learn melodic minor all over the fret board, especially in any 3 note per string pattern. But then again my point is usually don't run scales over any chords, so...

dewey decibel · Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 1674

That's cool. I don't. I mean I hold these players in high esteem of course, but not because of any technical proficiency. Wes and Grant are my favorite guitar players, and while Wes had amazing technical facility Grant is very limited. And honestly if Wes would've attended university they probably would've told him to quit using his thumb and pickup a pick.

But yes, it's a taste thing. Many different flavors out there.