PlayJazzGuitar.com Forum

[Jazz Playa]

[steve]

[JakeJew]

Jazz Player, I think what you aren't seeing is that I'm criticizing the concept of chord scale theory and the chord scale formula. That is my point.

Scales are useful but imo their application in jazz improvisation is usually misunderstood.

I spent years with scales and chord scales before I could actually play well over a tune. The thing that made a difference was getting away from scale-oriented thinking.

I think a decent summary was written here (although there are a lot of points that aren't touched on): http://www.berklee.edu/bt/121/chord.html

Here's Pat, briefly, on the issue:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.makers.jazz/2006-04/msg00169.html


And I think all I'm saying comes down to an issue of what is most pertinent. Learning the in-sen scale is dope, as is being able to imply 7/8 over 4/4, but some things that are more fundamental have to come first.

Too often it seems like the practice/pedagogy is over-focused on scales.

Here are some things I think are more important than knowing the MM modes in every position, just for example:

-Being able to play melodies like all the things, stella, autumn leaves, blue bossa, body and soul, just friends, etc, in all keys and in a wide variety of positions and configurations on the neck

-Being able to keep form while playing a standard tune with a group.

-Being able to solo over any of the above tunes using just chord tones

-Being able to clearly hear (and sing) each tone of the major scale against any seventh chord of the major scale and reproduce this on the guitar quickly.

-Learning, by ear, at least a few solos from the greats and being able to analyze how each note (one by one) of those solos relates to the chord it's being played over and to the key of the moment. Being able to play any chosen segment of one of those solos in any key and in any configuration on the neck.

-Being able to keep steady time.

-Understanding and being able to produce a good sounding swing feel in a variety of contexts - soloing, chord soloing, comping in a group, comping in a duo, etc.

-Knowing and being able to clap on any 8th or 16th note subdivision in 3/4 and 4/4 time.


and i could go on and on...all of these things are, imo, way more important than knowing the MM Modes (or even the diatonic modes) and some of these things are often overlooked.

Igiro, as for your point about mastery, my sentiment still stands. If you have 10 years to spend 10 hours a day practicing, I still strongly believe that there's an order in which things should be done if you want to reach your goals expediently.

I think learning all the MM scales all over the neck can be useful. Whether it's your twelve stock fingerings or some more intensive fretboard study, I think it can be useful and if you want mastery of the instrument it may be something worth spending time on. There are just other things that are much more useful and often are studied after the study of chord scales, if studied at all

To put it simply I think a player/student could ask himself this simple question to determine whether it would be worth his time to memorize all the melodic minor modes - "Can I play a simple, melodic and sensible solo over your average standard tune that compliments the original melody of the tune and clearly reflects the harmony?" If he can't, then there are other things to practice. If he already can do this, maybe he could get his MM modes down and start implying 13sus4b9 sounds over the dominants just for something fresh. But first things first...
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland

[Jazz Playa]

Well Jake from reading your post(s) I get the feeling that you think we're really far a part on this and really I don't think that we are. If you go back and read my earlier posts on this I said "scales are pretty useless IMO without a firm grasp of arpeggios." Sometimes I think some people around here aren't really reading correctly because I plainly said that scales are pretty useless without having a firm grasp of arpeggios. I would add to that statement not only "direct arpeggios" but also arpeggio substitutions.

Its just my firm belief that a good jazz solo is made up of all the tools we've mentioned in this thread, which by the way would include Melodic Minor. I also believe that trying top solo in jazz playing only scales leads to a rather vague, indistinct sounding mess of a solo.

So I'm not disagreeing with you about learning arpeggios and stuff Its just that the original question was about melodic minor and so I answered in effect 'yeah learn it all over the neck'. Bottom line is that if you wanna really play jazz guitar solos you've got to know it so I'm not telling some guy "oh don't bother with learning it".

And actually as far as practicing goes If I'm practicing 5 hours a day or more it was way too boring for me to practice just one thing that whole time. So even way back when I was still learning my arpeggios I might spend a long time on that but still there were also a lot of other things I could work on at that point so I might also spend time on MM, chord subs, playing in swing time etc, etc. That kept my learning time from getting boring and just unbearable. I think that's important for students as well so they won't get bored or frustrated with the hours and hours of practicing needed to become a high-level player. For me that made my practice time more rewarding because at the end of it I had satisfaction of knowing I actually made progress on several areas of playing. Frankly it also just kept me from getting bored and frustrated to tears.

[JakeJew]

[Jazz Playa]

Well then we do disagree.

Simply put I can't think of a good jazz solo (that is good to me) that doesn't use melodic minor elements at some points in it. For example I was looking at a transcription of a Wes solo the other day and noticed right off that in several places, over the minor chord he used a fragment of the diminished arpeggio and then over the subsequent dominant chord he would play a line straight from MM harmony. That was kinda cool to me and if I wasn't familiar with MM and arpeggio's I wouldn't have been able to grasp what he was doing so easily and quickly.

[JakeJew]

[Jazz Playa]

Well that's just the thing Jake, over the V chord he wasn't playing an arpeggio at all it was a linear phrase from MM. Over the II he played a diminished arpeggio fragment and over the V he played a linear statement from MM. NOT like just running the scale, as I think we would both agree on the importance of note selection no matter what you're playing, however it was by no means an arpeggio either just a "linear bebop" thing over the V.

[Jazz Playa]

Like I said though on other things I don't think we're as far a part as you think. Like melody for instance, the guitar players that are by far my favorites are the ones who have a real strong sense of melody. Not just amazing chops but also a keen sense of melody. The ability to create good melodies is huge whether creating chord melodies, single note soloing, or just playing the melody of the tune. Melody is where its at.

EDIT: I'm glad this thread is finished. If you guys think you can play jazz without knowing MM than go right ahead. I think that's absolutely preposterous. Next thing I know you'll be writing that you don't need to know how to play Maj7th chords or their extensions or something equally preposterous. Like I said go right ahead then, as for me I've learned those all over the neck too.

[sunflower]

Did you read that piece JP ?

http://www.berklee.edu/bt/121/chord.html

peace

[dewey decibel]

[JakeJew]

Yeah DD was digging up something I was going to mention - "melodic minor elements" is something that can be accessed without learning and memorizing the scale in every position.

If it's the element that sounds good, learn that "element" all over the fretboard and in every position, not the scale itself.
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland

[sunflower]

Just changing my avatar

[sunflower]

or not
sorry going away now

[JakeJew]

fwiw igiro my comments were all with the goal of playing jazz as competently and musically as possible - the path to be playing at the highest level, assuming that that includes being able to comfortably improvise over standards in a traditional fashion to begin with and then moving on from there.

The methods I've described in my posts in these threads are methods I think are more productive and efficient than the common chord scale perspective. I'm not at this point professional player or a professional jazz educator, so of course anybody reading this can take it with a grain or salt or just disregard me completely.

When I hear of some famous pro not knowing chord scales I don't think it's that they had the luxury of being talented, so they didn't have to study as hard - they learned by having a direct relationship with the music, and I think we all should do more of that. I think that to play music well one should focus on playing music and keeping all practicing as relevant to that goal as possible.

If internet posts are any indication, I think there are a ton of people putting the cart before the horse regarding chord scales. So many people come to boards asking what scales to use over each chord in a god damn ii V I. I don't think that approach - the approach of finding scales appropriate to each harmonic moment in a tune - is at all a productive, efficient, or musical way to start improvising over a tune.

if somebody wants the goal of mastery then, as I said before, there is an order in which things need to be done. If you want to play jazz in a traditional sense I think it makes a lot more sense to learn 20 ii V I riffs from records and play them all over the neck before you even think about chord scales. This isn't an issue of relying on intuition or talent, I actually see it as a pretty cut and dry way to progress more efficiently.
_________________
"Inspiration may be a form of superconsciousness, or perhaps of subconciousness - I wouldn't know. But I am sure that it is the antithesis of self-consciousness." - Aaron Copland