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Playing jazz/swing lines and vocabulary above 220bpm.
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Jens



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 416
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have nothing to prove...just improve.


I'm going to hang on to that one!

I did not save my recording, I just listened shook my head and practiced on Smile

Maybe I'll mail you one some other time.

You're right that sometimes the people who can play fast 8th note lines don't do anything else, but the chance of that happening given the amount of time you put into that is quite big.

I think that as long as you are aware then you'll probably not be one..

I was hanging out with some guys after a gig yesterday and we watched this video (sorry that it is sideways..) But in my book this is pretty much how you do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtjsYj6URY8
The saxophone player I was hanging out with thought he was faking it, not playing more 8th notes, I did not agree, he's a bit heavy on the quotations in my opinion, but it is hard to hold against him.

Incidently that was not how I sounded Laughing
Jens
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool link, thanks. That was pretty tasteful. It was like, he could burn but he did more than burn. Neat arrangement too, couldn't quite follow it, hehe.

Have you seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqEuunhzOPI

For the guitar solo, some cool ideas, but it doesn't seem like it's easy for him. He seems tense and I don't hear great follow through to his ideas. To his credit, I think there are probably few (if not no) guitarists in the world who could do better on that tune at that tempo.

However, the PIANO solo (solo to 2:20 to 5:03 in the second vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5eJHvK194k&feature=related ) I think is one of the most perfect uptempo solos I've ever heard...he does awesome things with the time and harmony, seems relaxed, has a great arc to the solo. It seems like playing around at this tempo is completely comfortable to him.

I'd love to develop my ears and sense of time to come anywhere close to that.
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Jens



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 416
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice! I some how never listened to Kreisberg that much.

I don't get the feeling that it's tense, and I like a lot of his ideas which are the same concept as Gilad's to me, except they are often in 8th note lines, but I think the tempo is a bit lower? It does not have nearly as much interaction to me and that makes it less dynamic. The interaction is much more present in the piano solo.

Jens
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dewey decibel



Joined: 15 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, long time! I used to worry a lot about this sort of thing in practice situations, but not so much in playing situations. The reason is I play the same kinds of things at up tempos as I do medium or slow tempos. I rarely play consecutive 8ths notes for more than a bar, I'm much more focused on shorter phrases and ideas. I think this comes from the guys I listened to and play with.

I agree that the guys that can really burn at up tempos pretty much do the same thing at all tempos. Myself, I didn't really listen to guitar players and maybe that's why I didn't have this issue. Even some of the horn "shredders" I like (such as Johnny Griffen) still have a lot of rests and pauses in their 8th note lines.

Point being; if you want to play like Coltrane, yeah you'll need a ridiculous technique. But if you want to play like Mobley, Miles, Morgan, Gordon, etc you really don't need all that much. IMO!
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Tung



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 203
Location: toronto

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jazzy wrote:


One of the things in this book I found very useful, was thinking in half-time. So f. ex. if you play a tune in 220 bpm, you think and feel it in 110. For me personally this helps a lot. I find it a lot easier to play double time lines in a ballad, than playing eight notes on a bop tune, allthough the lines are in the same tempo.


Wow, this topic is great. You guys all had some great ideas here.
I certainly found this approach to be most useful. Ed Bickert doesn't play at burnin' fast tempos too much, but when he does, some of his phrasing are half time, then he would throw in fast 8ths in between.
The point that I think is super important, the crucial element is not only good time, but RELAXED time feel. some even call it a LAID BACK sense of time. Bickert definitely had this in everything he plays.
Currently I'm working on this very concept by studying and learning Scofield's solo on his tune "Trio Blues". His timing is very relaxed and laid back over a fast F blues. At times there's some very Wes-like pentatonic blues licks. And then there are also fast bebop 8th notes, long lines. All the choruses he took had this same laid back sense of time.
I also compared the original recording to some of the live videos of Sco playing the same tune. The thing I found interesting is that the time feel varies significantly, while his vocabulary is not that much different.
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randalljazz



Joined: 19 May 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe lovano talks about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUdeevt9qQg
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Tung



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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Location: toronto

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

randalljazz wrote:
joe lovano talks about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUdeevt9qQg


Very insightful analysis on the various metric feels.
Thanks for posting the link.
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thanks. Great link!

Paul
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something else I'm realizing is really essential is...licks. Pre-arranged vocabulary.

It's really hard to improvise each note individually on the fly...

Also, technique makes some lines much easier than others. Makes sense to me to work out vocabulary that is possible, on a technical level, at the desired tempos.

I have come to realize that most guitar players that can play uptempo lines rely on a lot of pre-organized vocabulary.
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PaulD



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Jake. There's no doubt in my mind that licks are essential. Watch at the 6:56 mark on Hal Galper's Master Class The Illusion of An Instrument

Paul
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JakeJew



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulD wrote:
I agree Jake. There's no doubt in my mind that licks are essential. Watch at the 6:56 mark on Hal Galper's Master Class The Illusion of An Instrument

Paul


I'm starting to change my tune about the issue, so to speak. Just the word "licks" sounds so gross. "Pure improvisation" is much, well, sexier.

But when the tempo gets up there, it's kind of like a rocket ship and one's technique is the hardware of the ship, while the vocabulary is the fuel. Hard to go anywhere without both.
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PaulD



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about calling it "previously used improvisation"? Smile
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Tung



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At uptempo= more prefabricated licks. The great players know how to string them together so it's a coherent statement. a well written story that's strung together by a series of phrases.
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Viper



Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pre enjoyed improv.
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Henryrobinett



Joined: 01 May 2010
Posts: 180
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my things, that's made it more difficult in the short run, is lack of licks. I decided - for right or wrong, that I didn't want to procure the regular set of vocab and have pre-arranged licks. Now of course I see the value in this and I TEACH students all about this and give them reams of lines, because thats the accepted way it's done. But FOR ME jazz is the art of improvisation and I wanted to actually learn to improvise stream of consciousness.

So I HAVE practiced my ii-Vs to the point where I get it and no longer pull them out of a hat. And learn some lines to the point where I get it and don't pull them out of my hat. But mainly I practiced tunes, soling at various tempos and creating my own lines. Transcriptions to the point where I HEAR what's going on and can intellectually justify the notes against the chords, understand the scalar and chordal neighbors/enclosures/bop phraseology but never pulled the rabbits out of my hat, simply because I never spent the time or saw the value in memorizing them.

That said you can achieve speed and learn to phrase without memorizing licks. But you have to practice playing the tunes like Cherokee, Rhythm changes, Donna Lee, Domingo at 250-280 or above, until you just feel comfortable.
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