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Political Views (remember hate never solves anything)...
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah i'd love to play with some people again. I have worked at it pretty damn hard. 5 years ago was a really long time, that was before 9-11. there may in the future be a generation called "Post 9-11". That changed my world and allot of other people. I should start a rock band and burn effigies of osama and saddam while playing stuff like 'Die with your Boots On", Seek and destroy, Imagine, war pigs,blowin in the wind, masters of war, Fortuanate son, What's goin on, visions, Livin in the usa, give Ireland back to the Irish, Sunday bloody sunday,"war" what is it good for ,Give peace a chance, A Love Supreme, and Modal sections for thematic improvs. Now there is a hit, better get back to it, check you all manana'.
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draqza



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed norton wrote:
Yeah i'd love to play with some people again. I have worked at it pretty damn hard. 5 years ago was a really long time, that was before 9-11. there may in the future be a generation called "Post 9-11". That changed my world and allot of other people. I should start a rock band and burn effigies of osama and saddam while playing stuff like 'Die with your Boots On", Seek and destroy, Imagine, war pigs,blowin in the wind, masters of war, Fortuanate son, What's goin on, visions, Livin in the usa, give Ireland back to the Irish, Sunday bloody sunday,"war" what is it good for ,Give peace a chance, A Love Supreme, and Modal sections for thematic improvs. Now there is a hit, better get back to it, check you all manana'.


Dunno how you feel about A Perfect Circle... on election day 2004 they released eMOTIVe that had covers of imagine, what's so funny bout peace love and understanding, that type of stuff... sans modal improv sections of course.
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 762

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never heard of them Dragza, i'll check it out. Hey the elvis Costello one is a good . Neil Young And Bruce Springsteen always have good ones too.My politics are sure to make me even more unpopular, Oh boy don't get me started on the divison of wealth, I'm an American socialist and I don't eat Heinz ketchup anymore. Play that guitar man, live while we all can.
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Gorecki
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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Location: Davis, CA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't it Reagan who campaigned with 'Born in the USA' and didn't have a clue what it really said, or was that Bush senior? I forget? Confused

Gee the 911 thing, I was just getting on metro when they said Ďany boarding passengers to the district will not be assured returning trainsí, my cell rings and I was told about WTC. I did a U turn and went home, I was suppose to be in a meeting at USDA. Granted not near the pentagon, but pretty close to the capital building it was suppose to hit. **** changed our lives for ever. Iím a pilot, can you imagine how much fun flying is in the DC area is now? Got about 15 mile space between Potomac Approach, the ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone) and the P-40 retricted area (Camp David), not worth even bothering anymore. Rolling Eyes
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:37 am    Post subject: Alien relocation efforts Reply with quote

Internet Security Topic Moved to
http://www.playjazzguitar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=888

Political Views Topic Moved to
http://www.playjazzguitar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=889


Game On! Razz
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heavy stuff Gorecki, thanks for sharing. not trying to be a kiss ass, but man You do a good job with this thing. yeah it was Uncle Ron that didn't know "Born in The USA" was a protest song. I have a soft spot for Uncle Ron though ,because those were good times. I don't think 9-11 would happen on his watch. I cried at his funeral. He was a bad ass mofo and he made me laugh. His wife killed allot of pleasure though. I know he messed up allot, but I just have fond memories of Michael J Fox on "Family ties", and that ignorance is bliss attitude. Times change and people change, I guess 9-11 made me a radical. That ,and bad actors making 30 mil a year while people starve. I'm such a extreme wing pinko commie now, oh well. I do support our troops and really get affected when I see what happens to them.
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ed norton



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to talk so much today, I ran out of herbal refreshments. Gorecki one thing for You. You were in scary place on 9-11 . I was in charge of building maintenance at a Hotel only two blocks from Independence Hall. I had worked a 27 hour straight shift in preperation for an inspection, that of course got canceled. I stayed and tried to keep everyone calm, but I really wanted to bolt out of there. Man what a day.
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ingeneri



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An add on for your Born in the USA anecdote. George Bush senior campaigned to "Don't Worry Be Happy" until Bobby Mcferrin threatened to sue him. How's that for unauthorized IPR use.

I lived on Cap Hill on 9-11 and remember having to work my way home through a maze of freaked out security guards at every Fedaral and DC Gov. building. It took almost two hours to get from around the White House (near my office) to the Capital (near my house).

My first band as a leader had our first practice that nigth (the bass player still hadn't heard the news), and our first gig was later that week near Eastern Market. I was expecting disaster but instead we had this great turnout that was infused with the communal spirit that enfused those days.
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed norton wrote:
Sorry to talk so much today, I ran out of herbal refreshments. Gorecki one thing for You. You were in scary place on 9-11 . I was in charge of building maintenance at a Hotel only two blocks from Independence Hall. I had worked a 27 hour straight shift in preperation for an inspection, that of course got canceled. I stayed and tried to keep everyone calm, but I really wanted to bolt out of there. Man what a day.


Geez, my experience spooked me but in truth, I didn't loose anyone, my family was safe in the Maryland burbs. I've just had to deal with it on a federal level ever since but nothing at all compared to others who lost so much. Experienced first hand the devistation and for many around here, couldn't even get home. I got home, I was untouched by the events directly. Indirectly however..well you know.

Quote:

Heavy stuff Gorecki, thanks for sharing. not trying to be a kiss ass, but man You do a good job with this thing. yeah it was Uncle Ron that didn't know "Born in The USA" was a protest song. I have a soft spot for Uncle Ron though ,because those were good times. I don't think 9-11 would happen on his watch. I cried at his funeral. He was a bad ass mofo and he made me laugh. His wife killed allot of pleasure though. I know he messed up allot, but I just have fond memories of Michael J Fox on "Family ties", and that ignorance is bliss attitude. Times change and people change, I guess 9-11 made me a radical. That ,and bad actors making 30 mil a year while people starve. I'm such a extreme wing pinko commie now, oh well. I do support our troops and really get affected when I see what happens to them.


Allow me to make one point if I may brother, it's this destabilization that they (terrorists) are after. They want us to hate each other, our government and our way of life. In their eyes we do not deserve to live. **** THAT!

Granted our nation is far from perfect and our society seems to be more disconnected than it has been since the civil war. Separation of the haves and the have nots is well defined now. This is what they want! We can not allow them to make us fearful. It's this great country that allows us (the people) to disagree and still live next door to each other and talk about it. I'm not in anyway suggesting to ignore the wrongs or failures of our government but to remember we can be 'one nation' if we choose to...I hope we still can. Confused
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ingeneri wrote:
I was expecting disaster but instead we had this great turnout that was infused with the communal spirit that enfused those days.


Thanks so much for sharing that! I honestly can't say I recall anything else positive that came down those days. Sometimes I swear music can be THE binding thread that holds us all as one.
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draqza



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warning: Idealist liberal arts graduate babble to follow

Everybody poor: no

Everybody middle class: maybe. On the other hand, if everybody in the upper bracket gives up their money and goes down to the $50-60K a year range, then technically that becomes the upper class... although now there's a much smaller separation between the bottom and the top.

There are people who have made it big on their own, but there are still plenty of people riding on daddy's dollar. Not only that, there are still people who feel like money = intelligence; for example, the (on-his-way-out) president of University of Richmond (my alma mater) recently talked about the ridiculous tuition hike (something like 30+% for this year's incoming class) and said the tuition needed to be raised so as to attract a higher quality of student. (Let me give you a hint there buddy, the people whose parents can drop $40K a year like it's a quarter are the ones who aren't doing squat at your school, anyway.)

Taxes anger me, to an extent. Yes, I realize that the goverment needs money, and yes, it's logical that for the services the government provides (I'll save my criticisms for slightly later) the populace should kick some money back. On the other hand, I worked for 4 months as a student (at $8.75/hr) and 3 more months as a part-time employee (at $12/hr) and was trying my hardest to save up money so I could put down a security deposit on my new apartment for grad school. Over this period, I had nearly $6000 taken out for Social Security, federal income tax, and medicare. Note that this was with the smallest number of deductions I could take; it's not like I was trying to give the government a lot of my money, and let them give it back to me at the end of the year.

$6000! Do you know what that is for somebody who's been skimping along as a student for 4 years, and is about to skimp along as a student for another 4 or 5? I think there should be some sort of grace period, just like before you have to start paying off your student loans, to let you get on your feet at least.

Now, government "services"... yeah, yeah, security, freedom of the world, blahblah, we're paying taxes so you can spy on us and such in the name of counter-terrorism. Oh, and let's not forget wasting the Middle East. With Dubya's approval rating so low, there's not much else to be said here, but it seems to me that if we weren't having this long drawn-out war then a) the budget would come back in line because defense spending could drop, b) maybe the middle eastern radicals wouldn't be so pissed at us, thus lessening the need for over-the-top counter-terrorism measures, and c) if we still have to go in debt, it could be put to better use like, oh, energy research, education... I like how the No Child Left Behind program was a complete flop courtesy lack of funding, while we're dumping millions if not billions into killing people.


NOW.

I'll concede things such as: no, I don't have all of the answers. I won't even pretend to. Again, the low approval rating seems to suggest that even the right-wingers who put this idiot in office a second time are finally coming around; I'll admit that I don't exactly know how to fix things, but I'm pretty sure that there's somebody out there who can get the US back on track and out of the international quagmire the Bush administration has left us in. As far as the tax thing, maybe that's a pipe dream, I know, "what's to keep people from going to school for a semester so they can get a tax break for the next year," etc. Just wanted to chip my two cents in, I'm willing to listen to informed debate...

...or if you've quit reading and/or written me off as not knowing anything, that's cool too, I won't take any flaming personally as long as you don't target your disagreement with me toward my playing Wink

/end rant
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ed norton



Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragza keep doing what You are doing. There's always time for guitar, the worst thing is if it starts to define Who You are. I never wanted that, but people wouldn't give me my space of the world, so I just practice my ass off to rub it back in there face. My goal is to show the Big guys they aint so special, it's just a friggin guitar. It may define who I am to others, but not to me. If they took the time to know you, they would know that. Having read Your recent posts, i understand You a bit, and shouldn't have rushed to judge you. I will never play like the jazz greats, but every dog has his day, and there is plenty there to rub in their arrogant faces. Iv'e already exceeded some of my earlier heroes on some levels, just by working hard at making it real. allot of the Rock is smoke and mirrors, and some Jazz too. Some of the most honest performances iv'e ever seen where by friends who worked regular jobs, had families, and Only had limited time to play. I know a 60 Year old factory working woman, who may very well be one of the ten best country singers in History.
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draqza



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
dragza - i'm sorry that needs work. "C-" young man! try again.

food for thought:

if you want to stop complaining about other people who make more money than you - what the f*%k are you doing in liberal f^%#ing arts? didnt you get the f@#*ing memo? its medicine, law, engineering, business....

and if not medicine or law, you can get your employer to pay for grad school like the rest of us smart mother f%$#ers!!!

but uh... well... uh ... sorry i didnt mean to raise my voice.... thats just my opinion.


Okay, first, I want to clarify something for everybody... that's a Q in my name.

Second, I went to a liberal arts school because they gave me a full ride; I studied computer science, and now I'm at UVA where computer science is in the engineering school, and the school is paying for my grad school. The point is that even with scholarships, there are these other little things called living expenses, and undergrad student jobs/TA stipend don't pay *that* much.

And third... well... "C-"... I wasn't ever very good at writing essays anyway. Wink
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draqza



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
Okie Dokie draqza. I apologize. Smart move to comp sci! The liberal arts undergrad is a traditional establishment of a broad educational foundation to help future leaders see "beyond the numbers" for example. Good well rounded plan.


Yeah, believe me, I was right up there in the group of people making fun of the majors in the more traditional liberal arts fields... Richmond actually has one major that amounts to just getting a degree in liberal arts, and any time one of my friends considered declaring in that field I would say, "You know what they say about that though... 'I have a liberal arts degree, would you like fries with that?'"


Quote:

But back to your rant post. Are you advocating a "classless society"? Looks like you were working up to an interesting statement early in your post.

And since the upper middle and upper class certainly won't give up all of their extra money so that "everyone can be equal", is there a specific remedy you are proposing? Like passing laws to take it from them?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.


I think the "classless society" is where the idealist part of it comes in. That's clearly overly idealistic though, primarily for the very reason you point out -- the upper/upper-middle classes are not going to voluntarily drop themselves down so that the people who got laid off, were born into unfortunate circumstances and can't get out of them, etc., can have a chance to succeed.

Further, if a politician ever even suggested he was going to try to pass a law to severly redistribute the wealth, he'd be run out of office--the Republicans/Bush administration right now have a really bad rep for catering to big business and making rich friends richer, but let's be honest: it takes (a ridiculous amount of) money to run for office, and every politician ends up being in somebody's pocket.

The closest thing to a remedy would be probably some sort of reworking of welfare and redistribution of taxation, along with cutting back on government bloat. I was reading an article today that I believe was talking about Katrina recovery efforts and said originally $100bil had been allocated, but that various businesses had been promised that at least $200 or $250bil would actually be available in contracts, and that a lot of homeland security project contracts have been given directly to somebody without any bidding for who can do things the cheapest or quickest. (Don't get me wrong, I think all of the help that can be spared should be put to getting that mess sorted out, but I'm sure that similar bloat exists in every other government department for things that are probably arguably less important.) As I understand it, welfare requires people to have be actively looking for work to stay supported, but the people who are out on the streets begging for change are pretty much out of any chance of getting a job in the current job market, even with "the jobs nobody else wants," because few managers are going to take a chance on somebody who looks a mess like a lot of homeless people do, and most of those people don't have any real way to get cleaned up to the requisite level of presentability. (This is my guess, anyway, that bit could be wrong.) As far as redistribution of taxation, like I said in my previous post, there's no reason that I should have had nearly 50% of my check taken out in tax/medicare/social security when I was making less than $20K a year. I assume the percentages of those things are scaled by income, but my experience suggests it's not scaled well enough. Nevermind whether somebody can get cleaned up and off the street to get an entry level, minimum wage job, if they're going to have half of it taken away from them!

The short answer, though, is no, I don't have any idea how to fix it. Maybe this shoots my entire position in the foot; I certainly don't envy the government officials who actually have to make these types of decisions. And at this point, the economic system is so firmly entrenched anyway... even if somebody had a great idea to redistribute the wealth, get the poor and homeless up to a decent standard of living while still enabling people to succeed on their own merits (the key component of capitalism that actually encourages competitoin and progress, I would say).... the only way to actually rework the system would probably first require a massive societal catastrophe that would end up requiring the socioeconomic system to be rebuilt from the ground up anyway.

And since I don't see that happening anytime soon...
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Gorecki
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgiro wrote:
yes, but do you want it to happen? do you think it should?


Especially when put into scope many of the 'haves' in this country busted ass to get what they have and at the same time many of the 'have nots' are where they are because of inaction not lack of opportunity.

So as it stands, taking from those 'haves' and giving to the 'have nots' (for no reason other than some idea of fairness) doesn't come off as fair as far as I can see.

Even including the homeless, many (obviously not all) are homeless because they choose to be. They literally dropped out of society and did so by choice.

So, if someone came to my door demanding me to turn over some of what I've worked so hard to provide for my family to give to someone who was to lazy to do it themselves, rest assured they would be met with a shotgun and a pleasant demeanor. Wink
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